EM Vürinalt
Citizen since 12-20-2007
Parletz, am?c, en entrez
Posts: 979
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Post by EM Vürinalt on Jul 8, 2008 9:42:26 GMT -6
The Double the Fun Act [/b] WHEREAS having two of something instead of one is always more fun, and WHEREAS who didn’t like having two suckers to choose from in the candy store window when they were a kid instead of one, and WHEREAS Talossa currently on has one kind of sucker, and WHEREAS this sucker is called a senator, and WHEREAS senators don’t suck but you get the point, and WHEREAS the United States House of Representatives has 435 seats and the US Senate has 100, and WHEREAS 100/435 is approximately 23%, and WHEREAS for the sake of simplicity 23% is as good as 25%, and WHEREAS that means for every four Representatives there is one Senator, and WHEREAS the Talossan Cosâ has 200 seats and the Talossan Senäts has 7 seats, and WHEREAS 7/200 is approximately 3.5%, and WHEREAS 7/200ths cannot be simplified, and WHEREAS that means that for approximately every 28 Members of the Cosâ there is one senator, and WHEREAS that means those Members of the Cosâ only have one kind of sucker to choose from, THEREFORE we proclaim that: I. Article IV Section 1 be rewritten to: A. (current text) The Senäts, or in English the Senate, is the national legislative council and the upper house of the Ziu, and shall be composed of one Senator elected from each province. (new text) The Senäts, or in English the Senate, is the national legislative council and the upper house of the Ziu, and shall be composed of two Senators elected from each province. II. Article IV Section 5 be rewritten to: A. (current text)Political parties may "endorse" individual candidates for the Senate, one candidate per party per province. In the event that a voter does not specify an individual candidate for Senate on his ballot, his vote for a political party shall apply to the candidate endorsed by that party. A voter may always vote for a different Senate candidate than the one endorsed by the party of his choice, by indicating said candidate on the ballot. (new text)Political parties may "endorse" individual candidates for the Senate, two candidates per party per province. In the event that a voter does not specify candidates for Senate on his ballot, his vote for a political party shall apply to the candidates endorsed by that party. A voter may always vote for different Senate candidates than the two endorsed by the party of his choice, by indicating said candidates on the ballot. III. Article VI Section 6 be rewritten to: A.(old text)The candidate receiving a plurality of the vote shall be declared the winner. In case of a tie between two or more candidates, the executive officer of the province shall select one of those candidates to be the Senator. (new text)The candidates receiving a plurality of the vote shall be declared the winner. In case of a tie between three or more candidates, the executive officer of the province shall select two of those candidates to be the Senator. IV. Article V Section 1 be rewritten to: A. (current text) There shall be one Senator from each Province. (new text) There shall be two Senators from each Province. Uréu q'estadra så: Matáiwos Vürinalt, MC (CCCP) EDIT: Added the rest of the OrgLaw sections requiring change.
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Xhorxh Asmour
Talossan since 02-21-2003
Wot? Me, worry?
Posts: 1,754
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Post by Xhorxh Asmour on Jul 8, 2008 9:57:35 GMT -6
Well done, Matt!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2008 10:05:57 GMT -6
I support this.
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Sir C. M. Siervicül
Posts: 9,636
Talossan Since: 8-13-2005
Knight Since: 7-28-2007
Motto: Nonnisi Deo serviendum
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Post by Sir C. M. Siervicül on Jul 8, 2008 10:30:43 GMT -6
Well written! But I question whether we have a problem with too many people who want to be legislatively active and not enough positions to put them in. We recently established that one MZ may not sit in both houses of the Ziu at the same time. I say we should work on increasing the actual number of active warm bodies in the Cosa before we create a legal requirement to put more active warm bodies in the Senäts to balance out the number of theoretically possible Cosa members. In other words, we are not now and have never been anywhere close to having 28 MCs per Senator. It's more like a 2 to 1 ratio. Doubling the number of Senators would have the actual effect of creating a 1:1 ratio in the bodies, or maybe even making the number of Senators bigger than the number of MCs. EDIT: Correction - the MC:Senator ratio is currently about 3:1. That's pretty good. And a number of the MCs are only marginally active, which suggests that if this passes, you're not going to find many new people to fill the new Senäts seats, you'll have to shift people over from the Cosa. Which means the ratio will almost certainly drop below 2:1 and will approach parity. I think the Cosa should be the bigger house, and we should work on moving in the opposite direction.
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Capt. Sir Mick Preston
Capitán of the Zouaves
Posts: 6,511
Talossan Since: 9-21-2006
Knight Since: 10-12-2010
Motto: Cuimhnichibh air na daoine bho'n d'thainig sibh
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Post by Capt. Sir Mick Preston on Jul 8, 2008 10:45:17 GMT -6
I have a problem with trying to fill the new positions.
Where are you going to find 7 new people to run for senator? We currently have 23 MC's and 7 Senators.
While that may look like we have 30 members of the Ziu for 120 Citizens (meaning 1 in 4 Citizens is currently a Legislator) -
In actuality, Only 63 Citizens returned ballots last Election. We now have 47 % of all active voters in positions in the Ziu.
Adding another 7 Ziu positions pushes that % to almost 60%.
While we have more citizens currently on the books, at least 10 are ineligible for office. So, if we get 100% voting, no strikes-outs, etc.. - that means that we'll still be splitting 14 Senate positions and 200 Cosa positions between 110 people. If we continue with current trends, and get a 60 % turnout - that decreases our pool of Ziu candidates to 66 citizens.
Now, more math:
14 citizens will be Senators. Our pool of potential MC's is back down to 59 Citizens. We will again be in a position where we have more 3x more Cosa seats than we have active Citizens.
So we will be getting to the point that everyone will be a member of the Ziu.
I'm not against adding more Senators... but I think it's premature at this time. We just don't have the active Citizen's base to justify so many Ziu members.
Edit : Or, what Cresti said.
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EM Vürinalt
Citizen since 12-20-2007
Parletz, am?c, en entrez
Posts: 979
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Post by EM Vürinalt on Jul 8, 2008 10:52:44 GMT -6
I certainly understand what is being said, however, is the will of the majourity capable of being displayed by only 7 people?
In actuality, in Talossa, only 4 people then effectively control the actions of the Ziu- the 4 senators that make up the simple majourity of Për or Contrâ in each election.
4 people can hardly represent the will of 120 citizens and 23 Cosâ members.
If there was a way to make it easier I'd promote that, even 9, 10, or 11 senators would give us a larger representation of the will of the people, but there's no way to legally and fairly enact that.
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Xhorxh Asmour
Talossan since 02-21-2003
Wot? Me, worry?
Posts: 1,754
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Post by Xhorxh Asmour on Jul 8, 2008 10:55:19 GMT -6
We've been getting new citizens more often than ever before, and several newbies are very interested in giving their contribution to the political growth of our country. Young people tend to make more mistakes but learn fast. I don't think it's a bad idea to let them participate in the process, what we need is a change in the OrgLaw to make up for some people's erratic political behavior.
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Sir C. M. Siervicül
Posts: 9,636
Talossan Since: 8-13-2005
Knight Since: 7-28-2007
Motto: Nonnisi Deo serviendum
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Post by Sir C. M. Siervicül on Jul 8, 2008 10:55:47 GMT -6
14 citizens will be Senators. Our pool of potential MC's is back down to 59 Citizens. We will again be in a position where we have more 3x more Cosa seats than we have active Citizens. Good point! And don't forget to subtract out the King and the members of the Uppermost Cort, who are ineligible to serve in either house.
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Sir C. M. Siervicül
Posts: 9,636
Talossan Since: 8-13-2005
Knight Since: 7-28-2007
Motto: Nonnisi Deo serviendum
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Post by Sir C. M. Siervicül on Jul 8, 2008 10:58:40 GMT -6
I certainly understand what is being said, however, is the will of the majourity capable of being displayed by only 7 people? Frankly, I'd sooner eliminate the Senäts or limit its ability to block legislation than double its size with our current population.
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Capt. Sir Mick Preston
Capitán of the Zouaves
Posts: 6,511
Talossan Since: 9-21-2006
Knight Since: 10-12-2010
Motto: Cuimhnichibh air na daoine bho'n d'thainig sibh
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Post by Capt. Sir Mick Preston on Jul 8, 2008 10:59:57 GMT -6
If you double the size of the Senate it, would then take 7 votes to kill an Act.
So instead of 4 people controlling the Ziu, you have 7.
Instead of 3.33 % of the Citizens representing the Will of the People, it then jumps to ... 5.8 %.
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Capt. Sir Mick Preston
Capitán of the Zouaves
Posts: 6,511
Talossan Since: 9-21-2006
Knight Since: 10-12-2010
Motto: Cuimhnichibh air na daoine bho'n d'thainig sibh
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Post by Capt. Sir Mick Preston on Jul 8, 2008 11:01:59 GMT -6
What if you stipulated that if a "Super Majority" (66%) of the Cosa voted one way on an Act, then the Senate could not override the will of the MC's ?
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Xhorxh Asmour
Talossan since 02-21-2003
Wot? Me, worry?
Posts: 1,754
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Post by Xhorxh Asmour on Jul 8, 2008 11:02:10 GMT -6
I certainly understand what is being said, however, is the will of the majourity capable of being displayed by only 7 people? ... I'd sooner eliminate the Senäts or limit its ability to block legislation ... quote] That would be a good idea!
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Xhorxh Asmour
Talossan since 02-21-2003
Wot? Me, worry?
Posts: 1,754
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Post by Xhorxh Asmour on Jul 8, 2008 11:04:46 GMT -6
What if you stipulated that if a "Super Majority" (66%) of the Cosa voted one way on an Act, then the Senate could not override the will of the MC's ? If you hopper that, I'll vote PER.
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EM Vürinalt
Citizen since 12-20-2007
Parletz, am?c, en entrez
Posts: 979
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Post by EM Vürinalt on Jul 8, 2008 11:52:13 GMT -6
What if you stipulated that if a "Super Majority" (66%) of the Cosa voted one way on an Act, then the Senate could not override the will of the MC's ? That is a very very valid and desirable point. However, a bit of history: Febuary Clark- 38RZ1 - The International Community Entrance Bill, Iteration XIV I.C.E. 9: 129-37-34. (37/129=29% Contrâ= 71% Üc) 38RZ2 - 38RZ2 The Broad-Leaf Dandelion Act** 200-0-0 ( 100% Üc) March Clark- 38RZ3 The Shiny Objects Act: 163-0-0 ( 100% Üc) 38RZ4 Domesday Act: 160-0-3 ( 100% Üc) 38RZ5 The Whatchu Talkin' Bout Willis Act: 119-27-15 (27/119=23% Contrâ/Aus= 77% Üc38RZ6 The Secret Ballot Investigation Act: 39-109-15 (39/109= 36% Üc38RZ7 The Legal Classification of Talossans Act: 21-82-50 (21/82= 27% Üc) 38RZ8 The SQUIRRELS ... IN ... SPAAAAAAAACE Act: 200-0-0 ( 100% Üc) 38RZ9 The Saffron Act: 107-25-31 (25/107= 23% Contrâ= 77% Üc)
38RZ10 The (Further) Separation of Powers Amendment: 138-0-25 (100% Üc)
April Clark- (No bills)
May Clarck- 38RZ11 The Saffron Act: 138-46-0 (46/138=33% Contrâ= 66% Üc)
38RZ12 The There are TWO Languages and ONE King Act: 133-31-19 (31/133= 23% Contrâ= 77% Üc)
38RZ13 The International Memorial Day Act: 151-32-0 (32/151=21% Contrâ= 79% Üc)
38RZ14 National Flag Day Act: 150-33-0 (33/150= 22% Contrâ= 78% Üc)
38RZ15 The Men in Black II Act: 131-36-16 (36/131=27% Contrâ= 73% Üc)
38RZ16 The Antlered Animal Athletes Adoption Act: 163-17-3 (17/163=10% Contrâ=90% Üc)
38RZ17 The Put People In Their Zones Act: 66-76-3 (66/142 votes cast=46% Üc)
June Clark- (no Clark)
Now! That means that the only pieces of legislation the Senäts would even have to vote on were:
38RZ6 The Secret Ballot Investigation Act 38RZ7 The Legal Classification of Talossans Act 38RZ17 The Put People In Their Zones Act
All the other bills achieved the 66% super majourity or higher.
Now, of the bills the Senäts would have hyphothetically been able to vote on should the 66% super majourity legislation be enacted all failed in the Cosâ, meaning it's a dead bill to begin with.
Now, let's look at the bills that achieved the 66% super majourity in the Cosâ and failed in the Senäts:
38RZ1 - The International Community Entrance Bill, Iteration XIV I.C.E. 9 38RZ5 The Whatchu Talkin' Bout Willis Act 38RZ9 The Saffron Act- Both times!!! 38RZ14 National Flag Day Act
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Effectively, with a 66% super majourity Cosâ vote, the job of the Senäts would be dramatically weakened, even somewhat nonexistant.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Jul 8, 2008 12:10:05 GMT -6
The reasons for this bill are wholly insufficient for me to do otherwise than assure the honourable MC that I am going to have to vote against it. The Ziu, Senats included, appears to be working exactly as intended. If the people decide in the end that they dislike the decisions of Senators, then they can vote in new ones who represent different views and who will take different stances. The solution is not to try to add more cards to the deck.
Even were it somehow desirable to be more like our neighbor the USA, as it appears from the WHEREASes, MC Preston and Sir Siervicul have pointed out the essential impracticalities of the proposed changes.
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