Crovâ Seats Discussion

[Sir X. Pol Briga]

While I am the head of the Viensità Ciumisâ Cézembre (CRO; The Cézembre Reunification Organization) party, and in fact the only voter for the same within the entirety of the isle's population, I still believe that it is not appropriate for me to hold the seats while I am ostesibly the King's representative as Cunstavál.

I will entertain any, and I mean any ideas for persons who wish to occupy these seats and affiliate themselves with the Crows. And perhaps create a small crisis for the Cort - I include in my offer the opportunity for those who are currently on a visitor passport to Talossa to occupy those seats, should they clearly identify themselves with our fair Isle, perhaps through other organizations including www.cezembre.org.

This will not indeed alter the balance of power as the RUMP has a majority of the États de Cézembre, although it could have some consequences regarding anything that needs a 2/3 supermajority as a combination of the RUMP and CRO seats could achieve that. I do realize that this action could in turn displease the Regent or King to the point of my removal from their appointed offices, but it is my sincere hope that they allow this activity to continue as a testing ground for further cooperation between the Kingdom and other peoples of Talossan or Berber heritage.

XPB

[Hooligan]

Without meaning any slight to anyone who intentionally renounced their citizenship in the Kingdom -- some of them are kinda neat guys -- I do not think it is possible for any such person to participate in the drafting and passage of legislation for one of the provinces of the same. So no, I don't think those kind of Crows could be counted. The position of the RUMP would be that its members should not sit in a legislative assembly of the Kingdom with persons not loyal to the King.

Hooligan

[Sir X. Pol Briga]

I should suppose that since we all are welcome to consider various opinions, including those of cestoûrs or others who claim Talossan or Berber heritage, that the votes of the VCC-CRO could then just serve as an official conduit for that opinion. A person or persons may approach the VCC-CRO to be recognized as the virtual holder of a seat. If said person is a citizen, then they will be assigned that seat for voting. If said person is not a citizen, then a citizen will act upon their behalf to record their opinion in the form of a vote. If there is no other person in the party aside myself, I shall undertake this activity when feedback is provided on an issue, or otherwise abstain.

XPB

[Sir Samuhel Tecladeir]

X., I'm worried about that line of thinking. We have a representative government, a government who represents its citizens. What you're proposing is a representation of non-citizens which technically falls into the Foreign Ministry realm - of the other country. You're talking about a representation for their vote when they have no vote.

We want to work together and make things happen, but it's best served in private organizations and not government at this point. I also think you've got a conflict of interest if you sit on one government body as one party and sit on another body with another party. You may have to take the CRO national.

[Sir X. Pol Briga]

Regarding being a member of one political organizaiton at the local level and another at the national level, it was my understanding by previous correspondence with the Secretary of State that this was legal. However, if it is later determined that this is not advisable or correct then I will be certain to remove my association from one party. It does not make sense for a local party to compete at the national level, and if I am forced to make a choice, I will retreat from the national scene to focus on Cézembre exclusively.

XPB

[King John]

It's certainly legal to belong to more than one Talossan political party. It's been done before, usually (always?) with one national and one provincial party. Whether, in any particular case, dual membership is a good idea — who can say?

— John Woolley, UrN

[Sir Samuhel Tecladeir]

I wasn't meaning to appear - well, mean. I was reviewing the OrgLaw and a lot of the statements about political parties assume a national presence. A lot of it has to do with assignment of seats. That's where the "conflict of interest" came from. Please understand X. Pôl, I have the utmost respect for you. Your work regarding the University is huge and I wasn't trying to force you to do anything; more I was just speaking as I was thinking.

[Sir X. Pol Briga]

Open and frank debate is the coin of Cézembre, and there should never be a problem in agreeing to disagree on any specific topic. My brainstorming to come up with responses for possible objections is not intended to be a repudiation of their content but perhaps to expostulate without confrontation, and should not be intrerpreted as meek retreat from injury.

I realize that in the eyes of some I have made radical statements, in part due to my egalitarian motives. I simply do not have any baggage built of history or conflict within any form of Talossa to comprehend some missives regarding the protection of one from expressed ideas of the other. It seems that there is another way, an amalgamation of purpose by which all peoples of Talossan or Berber heritage can peacefully coexist within one vessel. A place where the zealots of one form or another have their own protected space, while the vast majority of citizens interact without barriers.

Some of these ideas challenge foundations of the legal and political systems of the realm, and in many ways will be viewed with the jaundiced eye of experience. Again I state, why not a grand experiment on Cézembre? An opportunity for development of a protoype that can be crafted, adjusted, torn apart, rebuilt, refined, and perhaps not perfected but to be on a pathway for consideration in wider domains?

I would call upon the États de Cézembre to request from the Ziu the authority to act in autonomy within the whole of the province regarding these matters, including the crafting of new documents organization as derived from the organic law as well as other sources. I believe this special zone would be a free trade area for ideas without the fetters of history.

XPB

[Nikϋ]

I have to be frank here - I think autonomy is a bad idea for reasons I will present later if need be.

With regards to allocating CRO seats to people from the republic, I can't see a problem if the organic law does not prohibit non-citizens from holding seats in the assembly - whether it is a good idea is then just a CRO matter. However, as far as I am concerned the republic is not recognised by the Kingdom of Talossa. As a result, any appointments have to be made with the understanding that the members are solely viewed as private individuals - they are members of an organisation that the Kingdom does not recognise.

[Sir C. M. Siervicül]

gpaulbailey said:

I believe this special zone would be a free trade area for ideas without the fetters of history.

Isn't our history a big part of what makes Talossa so unique? There are plenty of micronations out there that don't have quarter century plus of tradition underlying their culture.

blackrider said:

With regards to allocating CRO seats to people from the republic, I can't see a problem if the organic law does not prohibit non-citizens from holding seats in the assembly - whether it is a good idea is then just a CRO matter. However, as far as I am concerned the republic is not recognised by the Kingdom of Talossa.

The Organic Law does say that Cestoûrs (residents of Talossa who are not yet citizens) "are not entitled to participate in the political process of Talossa." If non-citizens who actually live in Talossa are explicitly prohibited from participating in the political process, can it be that the law contemplates allowing non-citizens who do not live in Talossa to participate in the political process?

As a result, any appointments have to be made with the understanding that the members are solely viewed as private individuals - they are members of an organisation that the Kingdom does not recognise.

Private individuals, with perhaps an unintended consequence. It seems to me that there's a good argument to be made that anyone who voluntarily chooses to hold public office in the Kingdom of Talossa would also be voluntarily submitting themselves to personal jurisdiction under the Kingdom's laws.

[Ián B. Anglatzarâ]

siervicul said:

It seems to me that there's a good argument to be made that anyone who voluntarily chooses to hold public office in the Kingdom of Talossa would also be voluntarily submitting themselves to personal jurisdiction under the Kingdom's laws.

Anything else would be really strange. By partaking in the political process in a country, you are committing yourself in a way that implies residency or at least residency-like conditions. And if I am residing within the virtual or physical jurisdiction of the Regipäts Talossán, you bet I'm subject to its laws.

[Sir X. Pol Briga]

C.M. Siervicül wrote

22 Jul, 2006, 7:44, X. Pôl Brigâ wrote:I believe this special zone would be a free trade area for ideas without the fetters of history.

Isn't our history a big part of what makes Talossa so unique? There are plenty of micronations out there that don't have quarter century plus of tradition underlying their culture.

Yes, the history of Talossa does make it unique, without dispute, but at the same time, that history seems to be a barrier in assembling potential opportunities or models for reunification. I'm thinking of a place where people can check their baggage at the door and explore different ways of organizing. Perhaps this can't be at the full scope of a province, perhaps only within the Political Science department of the University...

[Sir C. M. Siervicül]

anglatzara said:

Anything else would be really strange. By partaking in the political process in a country, you are committing yourself in a way that implies residency or at least residency-like conditions. And if I am residing within the virtual or physical jurisdiction of the Regipäts Talossán, you bet I'm subject to its laws.

Of course, it wouldn't matter that much for you, Ián, since we know that you're rightfully a citizen of the Kingdom anyways.

[Ián B. Anglatzarâ]

I haven't voted for a while though, so I've been a baad boy.