A discussion of symbols

[Sir X. Pol Briga]

I am not familiar with the origins of the design of the flag of our province, described as:

Sable, four bars argent, on a canton argent eleven fleurs-de-lys sable four, three, and four.

I can understand the fleurs-de-lys as related to the proximity to France, but I am uninformed regarding the selection of the number of elements, or the "colors" (fur, metal, or tincture). Certainly the fleur-de-lis could serve as a charge to be granted to the arms of nobility from our province, or perhaps some other symbol, but overall the impression that I have of our provincial flag is one of being a dreary and lifeless banner, perhaps to match some of the previous apathy of administration of the isle, which does not match the emerging activity that we have undertaken.

It would be my sincere desire to update our provincial flag, and to add other arms or symbols as befit our assembly and the institutions of Cézembre. Are there others that share this desire?

XPB

[Nikϋ]

Absolutely! I think the Cunstaval and Senechal of this fair isle must have started to achieve some kind of connection of the minds (hope it doesn't have anything to do with any mystic brianist rituals... )
Would the honourable XPB be interested in having a first go at a draft flag to replace our current dull banner? I am also sure that the formidable leader of the most progressively backward party in Talossa would be more than willing to lend us a designing hand...

[King John]

A suggestion from a non-Cézembrian by-stander? Get the College of Arms involved in designing a new flag; we can make sure it's heraldically correct as well as attractive and striking.

— Blanc Wolf Herald of Arms

[Sir X. Pol Briga]

An excellent suggestion by the Blanc Wolf Herald that we should get the College of Arms involved, as we come to agreement on symbols to be included. I would suggest at least the Fleur-de-lis be included

From Wikipedia:

The fleur-de-lis (also spelled fleur-de-lys; plural fleurs-de-lis or -lys; an archaic spelling is fleur-de-luce) is used in heraldry, where it is particularly associated with the French monarchy (see King of France). The fleur-de-lis remains an unofficial symbol of France (along with the bees and the Napoleonic eagle), but has not been used as an official symbol by the various French republics; the fleur-de-lis is often called as French lily. It is also used by various Scout organizations worldwide as part of their logo. In Christianity it is the emblem of Blessed virgin Mary.

It also has allusions to the trident, symbol of Poseidon, Greek god of the sea.

Perhaps something simple, such as a fleur-de-lis vert on a field argent:



Of course, this may already be in use somewhere (although most appear to be azure)

Or perhaps working in both the Vert and Gules national colors



or perhaps this, although it may violate rules on tinctures



similar to some of the other provincial flags and to adjust the aspect ratio to be similar as well.

XPB

[Ian da Bitour]

Look this flags, and let we consider them.

Flag 1


Flag 2

[Sir C. M. Siervicül]

gpaulbailey said:

I am not familiar with the origins of the design of the flag of our province, described as:

Sable, four bars argent, on a canton argent eleven fleurs-de-lys sable four, three, and four.

I can understand the fleurs-de-lys as related to the proximity to France, but I am uninformed regarding the selection of the number of elements, or the "colors" (fur, metal, or tincture). Certainly the fleur-de-lis could serve as a charge to be granted to the arms of nobility from our province, or perhaps some other symbol, but overall the impression that I have of our provincial flag is one of being a dreary and lifeless banner, perhaps to match some of the previous apathy of administration of the isle, which does not match the emerging activity that we have undertaken.

It would be my sincere desire to update our provincial flag, and to add other arms or symbols as befit our assembly and the institutions of Cézembre. Are there others that share this desire?

XPB

Although not a Cezembrian, I'm actually quite fond of your provincial flag, which has far more meaning than you realize. It's derived from (identical to, actually) the Gwenn-ha-du ("White and Black" in Breton), the flag of Brittany.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Brittany

I would strongly encourage retaining the black and white coloration. It's an important cultural link to Brittany, and the Bretons' Celtic cousins across the Channel in Cornwall (which also has a black and white flag).

I'm pretty sure the "fleurs-de-lys" are actually ermine spots. It's probably not a bad idea to change the provincial flag somewhat to distinguish it from Brittany's, but if it were up to me I'd keep the changes subtle. Maybe change the ermine to actual fleurs-de-lys to highlight the French connection, and change the number of stripes or something.

[Nikϋ]

I like the new designs! I can see where C.M. is coming from and I have to admit he has a good point. However, I would still like something colourful to attract the tourists...

What about we keep the general design of the flag and thus the cultural link to Brittany but: 1. change the colours of the stripes to the Talossan colours or some other eyecatching variation ('tis all about the bling) 2. Change the ermine spots to fleurs-de-lys or something else.

Thus, we shall retain our cultural link to Brittany but also assert our Talossanity.

[King John]

I don't think the canton is "argent, eleven ermine-spots sable four, three, and four". I think it's just "ermine" — the ancient arms of the duchy of Brittany.

I'd say that if you want to keep the Breton connection, you should keep the canton ermine, and mess with the stripes and so on. Just my opinion.

— Blanc Wolf

[Sir X. Pol Briga]

Thanks for the clarification by S:reu Siervicül and Sir Blanc Wolf. In reading the Wikipedia entry, it would seem appropriate that the flag of Brittany should be flown on Cézembre to augment a local flag, in recognition of relationship to the area attributed to the entire historic French province.

The current use seems to be like flying a modified flag of Wisconsin or perhaps the city of Milwaukee to represent the Talossan provinces there. It is my belief that we should have a symbol to represent the autonomy of Cézembre - and not just by swapping ermines to fleur-de-lis. The 9 horizontal stripes represent the traditional dioceses of Brittany into which the duchy was divided historically, but we will certainly have different delineation of lands of the island, and the flag itself was designed in 1923 inspired by those of Rennes, Greece, and the United States.

[Sir C. M. Siervicül]

blackrider said:

What about we keep the general design of the flag and thus the cultural link to Brittany but: 1. change the colours of the stripes to the Talossan colours or some other eyecatching variation ('tis all about the bling)

But.. but.. the colors are the most important part! I truly think the black and white are really striking and unique. Like a pirate flag! It's bold and high-contrast and different.

john said:

I don't think the canton is "argent, eleven ermine-spots sable four, three, and four". I think it's just "ermine" — the ancient arms of the duchy of Brittany.

I'd say that if you want to keep the Breton connection, you should keep the canton ermine, and mess with the stripes and so on. Just my opinion.

— Blanc Wolf

The original design of the canton was certainly just "ermine" - you'd see incomplete ermine spots where the pattern was cut off by the edge of the flag, for example. But the modern flag always has the 4, 3, 4 arrangement. Blazoning the canton as simply "ermine" now wouldn't accurately describe the way it always appears today, since the blazon could just as easily describe the original design.

See Morvan Marchal's original design here (third image down):

fotw.vexillum.com/flags/fr-bz.html

The Breton Autonomist flag right below it is an intriguing possibility.

gpaulbailey said:

Thanks for the clarification by S:reu Siervicül and Sir Blanc Wolf. In reading the Wikipedia entry, it would seem appropriate that the flag of Brittany should be flown on Cézembre to augment a local flag, in recognition of relationship to the area attributed to the entire historic French province.

Wisconsin is unfortunately one of those U.S. states with the awful generic state flag design - take a blue field and stick the state seal on it. An example to be shunned like the plague.

Another idea is to go back to the old flag of the independent kingdom of Brittany - the Kroaz Du ("the Black Cross"):



en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Kroaz_Du_(Black_Cross)

Either by itself (you couldn't ask for a cooler name for a flag) or incorporated into a unique design. Or St Malo's flag, which was a white cross on a blue field. St Malo (Mac Law) first landed in Cezembre when he came over from Wales, after all. Here are some quick ideas:



How about the old corsair's flag of Saint-Malo (neighboring Cezembre), with a Talossan squirrel instead of the ermine (animal)? After all, Saint-Malo and Cezembre had their corsairs in the old days, and Talossa has its private adventurers now. Cezembre could make itself the prime privateer hangout once more. Or replace the red canton with an ermines canton - the opposite of Brittany's ermine (pattern) canton, with white spots on black instead of black spots on white. That would even make it look more piratical, since "ermines" is (to me) evocative of "sable semy of death's-heads proper." Plus then Cezembre would feature the "opposite" of Brittany's old ermine flag, just as Cornwall has the "opposite" (St Piran's* flag) of Brittany's old Kroaz Du.

Or start with Texas's layout, except with green and red stripes on the right, and either the the Kroaz Du (Black Cross) or ermine (pattern) on the left.

Or, my favorite -

Convert Maryland's Calvert and Crosslands (arms of Lord Baltimore) to Cezembre's "Talossa and Brittany" - I would blazon it "1st and 4th paly of six vert and gules, a bend dexter counterchanged; 2nd and 3d, quarterly argent and sable, a cross countersigned." Head hurt yet? Or, more simply, 1st and 4th per fess vert and gules, 2nd and 3d argent a cross sable.

One final idea - a tricolor (like France) but with red and green on the ends (colors of Talossa) and ermine in the middle (for Brittany). Might remind people of Italy or Mexico more than France, though.

My favorite options in order of preference are: 1. making a subtle change to the current flag, 2. adopting the Kroaz Du, and 3. making a subtle change to the corsair's flag of Saint-Malo.

*I bet certain individuals on another forum might be amused to see St Piran mentioned on this one.

[Ian da Bitour]

[Ian da Bitour]

Well as Senéchal da Provînçù I wish the États to reconsider Pôl's proposal.
Since the my flags are mystery disappear I call S:reu Brigâ and all citizen of our glory province to post here. I don't want this post to die.

Ián B
Senéchal