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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2007 13:00:14 GMT -6
V- Is it that your real beef is that your proposal got shotdown, while this one seems to have support? Actually, I pulled back the bill, it didn't get shut down. I did believe I had the support to get it passed, but the other party made a valid point that I found myself agreeing with. My beef is what was stated above in my prior post. The Talossan government should not be used by people to satisfy their "good deed" for the day, which, from where I sit, is exactly what this is. Just as Armenia could be argued to have been mine, till someone pointed it out.
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Sir C. M. Siervicül
Posts: 9,636
Talossan Since: 8-13-2005
Knight Since: 7-28-2007
Motto: Nonnisi Deo serviendum
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Post by Sir C. M. Siervicül on Oct 5, 2007 13:10:55 GMT -6
At this point, all I can say is — it's too bad people don't engage in such vigorous discussion of bills that have actually been drafted.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Oct 5, 2007 14:21:57 GMT -6
Ministreu Toctviachteir, I still believe you have failed to bridge the necessary logical gap to put the Armenian genocide's validity, which I do not deny, on the same level as the ongoing conflict in Burma. As was indicated, denial of the Shoah still takes place, and it seems to me that maybe you have not been exposed to much of it. Many people around the world question it, or suggest that it was not really genocide... for example, recently a Japanese schoolbook did this. It is my impression that denial of the Armenian genocide exists on a greater scale, perhaps, but nonetheless in an entirely similar fashion.
I trust that, even if you disagree with this issue of degrees, you still see the distinct difference between the two bills. Let me say that I agree with you that Talossa must not be used to assuage the conscience of citizens, but on the same token I should point out that many citizens only vote in elections without really following Witt, and this resolution actually WOULD do some good in bringing it to their attention.
To bring this to a point: I pledge that I, at least, will not make this a common practice, and that every bill will have to pass a bar of utility and necessity mitigated by the desire of the constituency accordingly.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2007 15:02:28 GMT -6
You are dead wrong. I merely pointed out the differences between Armenian deniers and Holocaust deniers. It is you who the point has evaded. I implore you to go back and reread my post on the differences between the two. There is no question, under UN defintion, what happened in World War II was a genocide. What is denied is the scale of which it happend. And for those who do question whether or not it was a genocide need only read the UN convention on genocide (http://www.hrweb.org/legal/genocide.html). People do not question that mass murder took place, they question the term when it comes to Armenia. I can not explain that difference more clearly to you if it keeps evading you. The only, and I repeat, the ONLY reason why people are outraged by this is because the people who are being oppressed were monks, this bill, as well as this backlash, is nothing more but an attempt at people to sooth their conscience and feel better about themselves. Where are our bills condemning the North Korean government for oppression? The Iranian government for Oppresion? The Russian Government for oppression? The Chinese Government for oppression (and by being a major trade partner with the Sudan, funding the genocide there)? Where is our bill condemning Cuba? Or Hugo Chavez? Poland? What about Belrus which enjoys a wonderful military dictatorship? Start writing now Minister, because this is a very slippery slope some are putting Talossa on.
If people do not follow the Witt, yet they only vote in elections, then the resolution again has no point. I'm quite positive that people already know about the events in Myanmar. But I ask you, where are the bills condemning the ongoing killings of other people throughout the world? There is a fundamental difference between the first genocide of the 20th century and a government crackdown on monks in Myanmar.
Finally, there is a distinct difference between the two bills, and neither of them belong on the Ziu floor. It really is that simple.
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King John
King of Talossa
Posts: 2,415
Talossan Since: 5-7-2005
Knight Since: 11-30-2005
Motto: COR UNUM
King Since: 3-14-2007
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Post by King John on Oct 5, 2007 16:16:40 GMT -6
Where are our bills condemning the North Korean government for oppression? The Iranian government for Oppresion? The Russian Government for oppression? The Chinese Government for oppression (and by being a major trade partner with the Sudan, funding the genocide there)? Where is our bill condemning Cuba? Or Hugo Chavez? Poland? What about Belrus which enjoys a wonderful military dictatorship? Whoa! One of these things is not AT ALL like the others. Here are some of the current ratings from Freedom House, whose ratings go from 1 (best) to 7 (worst): Country | Political Rights | Civil Liberties | Myanmar | 7 | 7 | North Korea | 7 | 7 | Iran | 6 | 6 | Russia | 6 | 5 | China | 7 | 6 | Sudan | 7 | 7 | Cuba | 7 | 7 | Venezuela | 4 | 4 | Poland | 1 | 1 | Belarus | 7 | 6 |
I'm not sure how Poland snuck onto your "oppressive" list, but it shouldn't be there. Poland is a liberal democracy, and has the same level of freedom as countries like Denmark, the United Kingdom, the United States, France, and so on. — John R
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Sir C. M. Siervicül
Posts: 9,636
Talossan Since: 8-13-2005
Knight Since: 7-28-2007
Motto: Nonnisi Deo serviendum
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Post by Sir C. M. Siervicül on Oct 5, 2007 16:27:02 GMT -6
I'm not sure how Poland snuck onto your "oppressive" list, but it shouldn't be there. Poland is a liberal democracy, and has the same level of freedom as countries like Denmark, the United Kingdom, the United States, France, and so on. Amen. The Poles have done a heck of a job managing the transition from Communist rule to liberty, and should definitely not be lumped together with countries that have made much slower (if any) progress, like Belarus and Russia. That point is especially worth making because "America's" largest Polish heritage festival, Polish Fest, is actually held in Maritiimi-Maxhestic Province, Talossa. We Talossans are powerfully proud of our Poles.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2007 16:49:06 GMT -6
Where are our bills condemning the North Korean government for oppression? The Iranian government for Oppresion? The Russian Government for oppression? The Chinese Government for oppression (and by being a major trade partner with the Sudan, funding the genocide there)? Where is our bill condemning Cuba? Or Hugo Chavez? Poland? What about Belrus which enjoys a wonderful military dictatorship? Whoa! One of these things is not AT ALL like the others. Here are some of the current ratings from Freedom House, whose ratings go from 1 (best) to 7 (worst): Country | Political Rights | Civil Liberties | Myanmar | 7 | 7 | North Korea | 7 | 7 | Iran | 6 | 6 | Russia | 6 | 5 | China | 7 | 6 | Sudan | 7 | 7 | Cuba | 7 | 7 | Venezuela | 4 | 4 | Poland | 1 | 1 | Belarus | 7 | 6 |
I'm not sure how Poland snuck onto your "oppressive" list, but it shouldn't be there. Poland is a liberal democracy, and has the same level of freedom as countries like Denmark, the United Kingdom, the United States, France, and so on. — John R King John, I was basing it on the reports that the Kaczyñski brothers continue to try and form a more authoritarian government. As a member of the LGBT community, I take very personal the actions of people that violate my civil rights, and the civil rights of "the LGBT" family throughout the world. It does not have the same freedoms as countries like Denmark (the first country to allow same sex union in 1989) or the United Kingdom (which offers close to but not quite marriage and protection) and doesn't attempt to intimidate those who oppose their rule. Here is one link: Click Here www.ilga-europe.org/europe/guide/country_by_country/poland/the_letter_of_humar_rights_watch_to_polish_prime_minister_j_kaczynski***edit* the link doesn't seem to be working, copy and paste it taking out the spaces for it to wor*** Also, from your website:" The 1997 constitution guarantees freedom of expression and forbids censorship. However, the country’s libel law treats slander as a criminal offense, and journalists oppose the growing number of related lawsuits. Infringements on media freedom include gag orders and arbitrary judicial decisions concerning investigations of individuals affiliated with parties in power. The law requires the media to maintain “respect for Christian values,” and in 2005, a journalist was convicted of insulting the pope in a newspaper article, fined $6,500, and given a suspended jail sentence. A recent spate of criminal libel cases, in which enormous damages were sought, is thought to have given rise to self-censorship by journalists. " (http://www.freedomhouse.org/inc/content/pubs/fiw/inc_country_detail.cfm?year=2007&country=7254&pf) So I, as both a believer in freedom of expression and a member of the LGBT family, stand by my placing Poland on that list. The Poles, prior to the Twins, had made excellent strides since the fall of communism. That much is true... but one cannot deny the negative treatment of LGBT and journalist as being counter-civil liberties.
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Post by Dréu Gavárþic'h on Oct 5, 2007 17:16:06 GMT -6
sorry guys, not to be a nit-picker, but actually the Danish people have recently been struggling for their free speech...
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Hooligan
Squirrel King of Arms; Cunstaval to Maricopa
Posts: 7,325
Talossan Since: 7-12-2005
Motto: PRIMA CAPIAM POCULA
Baron Since: 11-20-2005
Count Since: 9-8-2012
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Post by Hooligan on Oct 5, 2007 17:53:46 GMT -6
Personally, I like the way the Kingdom of Talossa is being run. In my opinion (biased? what?) the government of that nation worth a pretty impressive resolution of commendation from our nation's legislature.
That may just be me, though. But I guarantee that the Kingdom's government would pay more attention to such kudos as any other nation would to a resolution of the Ziu condemning or applauding them.
Oh, and as for Poland, I would support a resolution offering honourary Talossan citizenship to Troy Tulowitzki.
Hooligan
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Post by Dréu Gavárþic'h on Oct 5, 2007 22:28:55 GMT -6
I agree Lord Hooligan (Don't worry, you're not biased...well...okay maybe a little bit)
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Post by Breneir Itravilatx on Oct 5, 2007 23:13:09 GMT -6
I am proud to be a Talossan and to be a part of a nation that recognizes and respects the individual freedoms that we hold dear. But I am dismayed by the unfortunate reluctance of some to support those that seek to create the same type of society within their own realms. Therefore I submit the following:
The Saffron Talossa Act
Whereas, the Burmese peoples have suffered under authoritarian military dictatorships since 1962 and specifically the State Peace and Development Council since 1992; and
Whereas, these successions of regimes have been responsible for continuous and sustained violations of human rights (ethnic cleansing, forced labor, conscription of child soldiers, etc.) and denial of civil, political and economic freedoms (suppression of movements for democratic expression, etc.) and have been specifically responsible for the displacement of at least 500,000 ethnic minorities and the deaths of at least 300 people who were members of outlawed opposition political parties over the course of the past year alone; and
Whereas, the Burmese peoples have repeatedly in fearless and bold form proclaimed their yearnings and determination for a unfettered capacity to express their own vision of the UN charter's promise to all peoples around the globe of self-determination; and
Whereas, in the fine words of current UN envoy to Burma, Ibrahim Gambari, "No country can afford to act in isolation from the standards by which all members of the international community are held."
Therefore, the Kingdom of Talossa as a member of the international community that respects and affirms the rights of all peoples for expression of all forms of political, civil and cultural freedoms and expresses its solidarity with the brave saffron-robed monks that have taken to the streets and monasteries of Burma to oppose dictatorship and brutality.
Submitted for consideration and sponsorship by any willing MoC by Brenéir Tzaracompradâ on a day of International Protests for Burma Day--Oct. 6th, 2007
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2007 0:21:49 GMT -6
Personally, I like the way the Kingdom of Talossa is being run. In my opinion (biased? what?) the government of that nation worth a pretty impressive resolution of commendation from our nation's legislature. That may just be me, though. But I guarantee that the Kingdom's government would pay more attention to such kudos as any other nation would to a resolution of the Ziu condemning or applauding them. Oh, and as for Poland, I would support a resolution offering honourary Talossan citizenship to Troy Tulowitzki. Hooligan I did not say the Poles were bad, just as I do not believe Iranians are bad. It is their government I do not like.
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