EM Vürinalt
Citizen since 12-20-2007
Parletz, am?c, en entrez
Posts: 979
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Post by EM Vürinalt on Dec 27, 2007 13:50:22 GMT -6
I support this bill with my entire heart but I wish to play a little bit of Devils Advocate here.
Say we actually write a letter and get a reply from the UN? Now, if you were the UN honcho and you read a letter (however credible it may be) saying that we've broken off the United States and formed our own independant sovereign nation, what would you think? We have a government, but we don't have a standard currency, weights or mesures, all that other logistical stuff. Would he think we are just another crazy group of crackheads who hate the United States who "break away?" Would he look at it like that joke about declaring your appartment an independant nation and then suing your above floor neighbors for violating your airspace?
We haven't been officially officially recognized by the United States. Perhaps we should start small and work our way up to the UN? I'd try to be officially recognized by the United States government with well written letter to both the President and the Wisconsin Senators.
I agree with the earlier proposal to contact a state such as San Marino or Morocco in attempts to be recognized.
Since I am still playing Devils Advocate I am also going to add- say we get media attention. How are we going to handle that?
Just some things to think about.
Like I said, I whole heartedly agree and back this bill, but we have to make sure to look at both sides of the arguement here since we all agree on the basic fact that we have to try to be recognized by 1)a small country and 2)the United Nations.
~Vürinalt~
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Jan 10, 2008 23:54:22 GMT -6
I would like to Clark this bill, S:reu Secretary of State. Thank you for your attentiveness.
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Capt. Sir Mick Preston
Capitán of the Zouaves
Posts: 6,511
Talossan Since: 9-21-2006
Knight Since: 10-12-2010
Motto: Cuimhnichibh air na daoine bho'n d'thainig sibh
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Post by Capt. Sir Mick Preston on Jan 11, 2008 0:21:07 GMT -6
Since this bill has been in the Hopper for ... oh, a few MONTHS...(smiles)
Can you present it in it's finalized form, just so we are all sure to what the actually wording is?
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Jan 11, 2008 1:21:39 GMT -6
The International Community Entrance Bill, Iteration XIV I.C.E. 9 WHEREAS, as an independent and sovereign nation possessing of a long and proud heritage, Talossa merits a place among the ranks of other states of equal status, and WHEREAS, our beautiful country deserves to have its voice heard within the international dialog of the world in order to help promote Talossan interests abroad, and WHEREAS, the organization known as the United Nations is the international organization of the greatest prominence, and WHEREAS, entrance into the aforementioned United Nations is predicated upon our willingness to accept and uphold the responsibilities and obligations delineated for a signatory nation within the document known as the "Charter of the United Nations," and WHEREAS, the stated purposes of the UN are peace, friendly relations, international cooperation, and harmony, and Talossa also believes in these things, so there is no conflict but rather an affirmation of Talossan values, and WHEREAS, the practical obligations that would be imposed upon us by UN membership are the minimal ones of an annual fee, agreeing to pacific resolution of international disputes, provision of troops or facilities if needed, participation in the International Court of Justice in the case of international legal disputes, and other such things easily met by our burgeoning state, and WHEREAS, the benefits of joining the international community in an active manner far outweigh the negligible fees, which would be calculated as a percentage from our GNP, as well as the other items of obligation which would have generally already been Talossan policy anyway and thus no hardship, and WHEREAS, Talossa is desirous of embarking on a long career of vibrant international relations, rather than the sporadic and chilly attentions we currently receive, excepting of course the United States of America's kind recognition of Talossan sovereignty, and we hope that this will be the impetus behind the crystallization of a new era of international communication, THEREFORE, the government of the Kingdom of Talossa hereby officially recognizes, supports, and endorses the ideals and goals detailed within the United Nations Charter, and we hereby declare our intentions to join the august body of the General Assembly of the United Nations, and avows that Talossa will meet the obligations which are a part of being a member with full faith and our greatest exertions. Uréu q'estadra så: Alexander Davis (Senator M-M)
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Capt. Sir Mick Preston
Capitán of the Zouaves
Posts: 6,511
Talossan Since: 9-21-2006
Knight Since: 10-12-2010
Motto: Cuimhnichibh air na daoine bho'n d'thainig sibh
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Post by Capt. Sir Mick Preston on Jan 11, 2008 13:55:27 GMT -6
Thank you.
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Post by Breneir Itravilatx on Jan 13, 2008 11:09:30 GMT -6
I am so looking forward to voting in the affirmative on this bill! Disclaimer: The statement above is a personal opinion not an official party policy.
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Post by Breneir Itravilatx on Feb 25, 2008 23:35:03 GMT -6
I am saddened to see that this bill failed. I hope that it will come back in some revised form in the near future. Those that wish for Talossa to be more engage in the external world should not be deterred or disheartened.
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Post by Owen Edwards on Feb 26, 2008 3:07:26 GMT -6
The LRT will certainly be looking to either support a revised version of this Bill or introduce a Bill regarding application to the UNPO.
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EM Vürinalt
Citizen since 12-20-2007
Parletz, am?c, en entrez
Posts: 979
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Post by EM Vürinalt on Feb 26, 2008 16:10:21 GMT -6
Yes, while I agree with all the said statements, I must say this- is Talossa ready to handle international politics??
What will we do when the United States comes down on us like a ton of bricks?? What will we do with media attention??
I think we must first facilitate the means of dealing with these impending problems before knowinglessly entering into the international community's political landscape.
I'd be very interested in helping develope such plans of attack to make this transition more possible, but right now I consider ourselves diplomaticaly unprepared for the repercussions of this bill.
This, my fellow MCs is the reason I voted Aus. I do support the bill, thus not meriting a non, but for the reasons stated above, I could not say per.
~Matáiwos Vürinalt~
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Post by Breneir Itravilatx on Feb 26, 2008 19:34:47 GMT -6
Yes, while I agree with all the said statements, I must say this- is Talossa ready to handle international politics?? What will we do when the United States comes down on us like a ton of bricks?? What will we do with media attention?? ~Matáiwos Vürinalt~ Fear should not be a guiding principle of our foreign policy.The questions you pose are understandable but smack more of a sense of insecurity than of diplomatic caution. I would point out that we have received international attention before and we have unashamedly and without trepidation informed our neighbors of our intentions regarding our rights to self-determination. We are a nation that is older and more diverse than many nations that currently enjoy UN recognition.
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EM Vürinalt
Citizen since 12-20-2007
Parletz, am?c, en entrez
Posts: 979
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Post by EM Vürinalt on Feb 26, 2008 20:14:30 GMT -6
Yes, while I agree with all the said statements, I must say this- is Talossa ready to handle international politics?? What will we do when the United States comes down on us like a ton of bricks?? What will we do with media attention?? ~Matáiwos Vürinalt~ Fear should not be a guiding principle of our foreign policy.The questions you pose are understandable but smack more of a sense of insecurity than of diplomatic caution. I would point out that we have received international attention before and we have unashamedly and without trepidation informed our neighbors of our intentions regarding our rights to self-determination. We are a nation that is older and more diverse than many nations that currently enjoy UN recognition. Agreed. I was not debating that. I am not afraid of what may happen, I am just trying to bring to light the situation that we must fully understand exactly what we are getting into with this. I will say this regardless of the repercussions. I am a Talossan. There is no debating that. But we do not have sovereign control over any land. While yes, we have a territorial claim on the GTA, we do not actually control the land and all it's Cestours. I think that may be a huge stumbling block for official UN recognition. I propose that the bill be rewritten that Talossa enter the UN as an observer rather than a member state, unless we can manage to control the GTA before entering into this process.
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Vit Caçeir
"I hated being AG so much I fled as far from it as literally possible."
Posts: 810
Talossan Since: 11-19-2007
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Post by Vit Caçeir on Feb 26, 2008 21:35:35 GMT -6
Would he look at it like that joke about declaring your appartment an independant nation and then suing your above floor neighbors for violating your airspace? Firstly my friend, you TOTALLY stole this joke from that "time management" lecture at C.L.C. What will we do when the United States comes down on us like a ton of bricks?? What will we do with media attention?? Media attention is something the Kingdom could use more of, in my opinion. Although, perhaps not the type of attention a U.N. venture would cause. The United States is a large hurdle. While I hate to admit it, our we are still (for the most part) politically dependent on the United States. I believe our declaration of autonomy has been ignored by the U.S. primarily because we don't seek to undermine or destroy the U.S., and we are fairly harmless to them. However, a U.N. venture could lead them to believe we ARE a threat (don't ask me how they'd conclude that... these are Americans we're dealing w/, after I think we must first facilitate the means of dealing with these impending problems before knowinglessly entering into the international community's political landscape. This I agree with. Fear should not be a guiding principle of our foreign policy. Perhaps not fear, but realism. Although we might believe Talossa is ready for U.N. membership, I can already think of three nations that will disagree (France, U.S., and if you know anything about internationale politics you'll know the third ), all of which are permanent members of the U.N. Security Council. Without a unanimous decision from the U.N. Security Council, any U.N. venture is completely moot and wasted time. These are problems that another state in a (somewhat) similar state, Kosovo, are currently dealing with. (Note the shameless self-promotion ;D) On the topic of this bill, I would vote for it with my heart, but against it with my brain. I really want to see Talossa represented in the United Nations, but due to issues with three certain Security Council Members and other legal "gray area", I think any realistic U.N. venture would be a ridiculously hard hurdle for Talossa to jump. Because of the endless bickering the Security Council would be engaged in, and the controversy over our nation's very existence that such a venture would inevitably cause, I am still "undecided" on this bill. However, I urge my fellow Legislators not to forget that there are alternatives to the United Nations. UNPO is the most obvious choice, and (as of now) I personally believe the more likely to reap success, but there was an interesting point brought up in the February Clark Thread.... I agree with the statements posted at unfortaiwan.org/ and though it may be possible that having Talossan representation in the United Nations could somehow influence the later recognition of Taiwan, [and]as the UN would likely give in to similar bullying of the USA and France regarding Talossan admission. Instead, I think we should form a new League of Nations with Taiwan and others who are unjustly denied entry to the UN! In my opinion, S:reu Briga brings up an excellent point. States like Taiwan, the Principality of Minerva (illegally invaded and annexed by the Kingdom of Tonga in 1972), Kosovo, and many others which deserve U.N. membership but have been blocked by political partisanship should unite and create some sort of diplomatic forum. It is an interesting idea that, in my opinion, should at least be considered.
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Post by Breneir Itravilatx on Feb 26, 2008 22:39:54 GMT -6
It is not realistic to have your own actions vetoed by potential events which may or may not come to fruition. All of Vuri's questions are what ifs. They are not certainties but hypotheticals and I think it is more realistic to have our efforts pinned to our own goals and not on the expected actions of other nations.
We need not legislate or fail to do so based on notions of hypothesized realpolitik.
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Post by Owen Edwards on Feb 27, 2008 2:51:13 GMT -6
MC Vurinalt, there is a response to your concerns - membership of the UNPO - as I explicitly mentioned.
We (the LRT) will work towards actually achieving that objective this term - watch out for a draft from MC Caceir's office in due order!
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Feb 27, 2008 4:49:51 GMT -6
I would urge any preparer of such a bill to concentrate less on the content and more on the extreme set of justifications and briefs to support it that will be needed for it to clear the Senate, which appears almost united in opposition to such measures. And while I think the entire matter is of little relative importance, I do differ with my party on the matter.
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