Recognition of the Abdication of King Louis

[Sir X. Pol Briga]

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

This Act may be cited as the `Recognition of the Abdication of King Louis'.

SECTION 2. FINDINGS.

The Ziu finds that the biological mother and legal guardian of Louis objects to his recognition as King of Talossa (and... insert any other honorifics here)

SECTION 3. KINGDOM OF TALOSSA POLICY AND PURPOSE

The Ziu hereby recognizes the abdication of Louis as King.

[King John]

If a King (who has not in fact abdicated) could have his "abdication" "recognized" by an Act of the Ziu, that would be precisely equivalent to the Ziu's being able to dismiss the King by law. The idea is clearly inOrganic. If this law were to pass, it would be the Regent's duty to veto it; and if he failed to veto it, the Cort would no doubt throw it out.

It would make just as much sense to pass a law "recognizing" that some Justice of the Uppermost Cort had resigned. He either resigned or he didn't; and no law can change the fact. The King is an important constitutional officer; he can't be made "to have abdicated" by someone's voting to "recognize" what never happened.

In Talossan law, the legal guardian of the King is the Ziu (with a 2/3 vote of each House) and the Cort (unanimously). The current situation is precisely the kind of thing we had in mind when we passed the Royal Guardianship Act, which (among other things) provides a mechanism by which a minor King might abdicate.

You can't make something *have happened* by simply passing a law saying that it *did* happen.

— John Woolley, UrN, Senator for Florenciâ

[Danihel Laurieir]

I agree completely with Sir John's analysis here.

How about something like this? (See below)

I'd prefer not to not to introduce this myself. Rather, I think the PM should re-work this to his liking and offer it for consideration.


Honoring the Wishes of the King's Mother—A Sorrowful Resolution

Whereas, King Louis I is, under Talossan law, a minor monarch protected by the warship of the State;

Whereas, the Kingdom of Talossa's laws—under Clause 2 of 36RZ1—make the Ziu and the Cort a joint ward of a minor monarch;

Whereas, the mother of King Louis I—his legal custodian in the United States—has expressed an explicit wish that her son no longer be styled the King of Talossa; and

Whereas, the Ziu and the Cort recognize—irrespective of national boundaries—that the best interests of a child are often the chief concern of parents and therefore that the wishes of parents in regard to their children should be given paramount consideration;

Therefore:

The Wardship of the King Louis I—that is, the Cosa, the Senats and the Uppermost Cort of Talossa—do, with sorrowful hearts, but acting in the best interests of the King's personal well-being as his legal Wardship—which is empowered by law to make decisions in his stead—formally declare that His Majesty King Louis I abdicates his Kingship effective upon passage of this resolution by a two-thirds vote in both houses of the Ziu and a unanimous assent by the Cort.

[Sir Samuhel Tecladeir]

Isn't this what the motion on the floor is carry right now?

[Danihel Laurieir]

Mr. Prime Minister, Sir:

Yes, the draft resolution I posted here is equivalent in meaning to your motion.

But there is a difference in form. My draft of the resolution is a draft of a resolution rather than a motion. A resolution is akin to a bill text. A bill text is something that can be given a number and run through the normal legislative process of the Kingdom's legislature. It also provides a written official text for the Cort to examine and reflect upon. In short, a resolution is a more recognizable vehicle--at least in the Talossan context--to express legislative will than is a motion. It just feels to me more official and correct for there to be a resolution or bill on the matter rather than a motion.

If we start allowing motions to have the same effect as laws, we will have returned the old days when legislation could be presented to legislators without time for comment, reflection and correction.

As a legislator, I would prefer that this resolution--or something like it--is first presented here in the Hopper before it goes to the legislalture--and that's another difference between your motion and this resolution. In this case, the resolution might not stay in the Hopper for long because--as PM--you have the power to place it before the Ziu as soon as it's been in the Hopper. But the principle is important, I think. And, I'd argue--and will argue at greater length in other venues, if necessary--that it's the law.

[Sir Samuhel Tecladeir]

I'm confused. You said you agreed with Mr. Woolley about not making law saying whether something happened or not and also say that there needs to be a law. I'm not getting it.

My understanding of the unprecedented move we're making is that this is not a legal action that we're taking, but a royal action as the King's ward and therefore on the King's behalf. We're not acting as the legislature, but as the King. So, putting it through the legislative process is throwing me off a bit here.

[Danihel Laurieir]

Mr. Prime Minister, Sir:

In response to a proposal offered by X Pol Briga that would have the legislature recognize the de facto abdication of the King, Sir John pointed out that the King has not in fact abdicated--and because the King hasn't abdicated, the Ziu can't recognize his abdication (because he hasn't abdicated).

My proposal was intended to accomplish in resolution form what your motion also sought to accomplish, and that is to have the King's legal guardian (the Wardship combination of the Ziu and the Cort) make a decision on the minor King's behalf to abdicate.

You ask whether a decision of the state (the Ziu and the Cort) acting as a legal guardian of the King should be considered an act of legislation.

I think it should. At a minimum, treating it like legislation gives the process more order and coherence with the purpose and role of a legislature. It makes the whole process seem more official and formal, I think. And, I note, that putting your motion in resolution form adds very little work to the legislative process, but does add the elements of order, formality and officialness that I'd like to see.

Others, like you and Sir John, seem to think that legislation is not required. I'm not sure if legislation is required, but it's definitely preferred (from my perspective).

Mr. Prime Minister, I've made my arguments. I have one seat in the Cosa. Please proceed on this matter as you see fit. As I've said, I agree with your policy (as distinct from it's specific form).

[Sir X. Pol Briga]

I will support "Wishes of the King's Mother—A Sorrowful Resolution" if it can be swiftly brought to the cosa and voted upon. This issue of vital importance to the Kingdom has been discussed for a week, and it appears that a 2/3 vote of the Ziu will accomplish this simple yet very important act, and that the motion can be brought from the hopper to the floor by special action.

I await the opportunity to vote upon this measure. If this measure cannot be brought to the full body to vote upon on or before noon, Greater Talossan Daylight Time (equivalent to Central Daylight Time or GMT +5) on Monday, the twenty-third of October, two-thousand and six, I shall tender my resignation from the Cosa and will have to consider whether to remain even a citizen of the Kingdom as the real legal consequences in these days of witch hunts by those in governmental positions who feel they are protecting children are extremely potent, and in many cases the burden of proof lies upon the accused.

XPB

[Trotxâ]

gpaulbailey said:

If this measure cannot be brought to the full body to vote upon on or before noon, Greater Talossan Daylight Time (equivalent to Central Daylight Time or GMT +5) on Monday, the twenty-third of October, two-thousand and six, I shall tender my resignation from the Cosa and will have to consider whether to remain even a citizen of the Kingdom as the real legal consequences in these days of witch hunts by those in governmental positions who feel they are protecting children are extremely potent, and in many cases the burden of proof lies upon the accused.

Pol-

You can go ahead and quit, but that shouldn't make any difference to the Ziu. Many senior and experienced Talossans have urged that we move deliberately on this issue, and I'm inclined to trust their judgement. From what I can tell, the tactic of "Do It Or Else" is one that Ben Madison used repeatedly. Thus, it is a tactic it has lost much of the power it once had.

The sentence quoted above is long and convoluted. The last part of it prompts a request for clarification. It appears that you are saying that we should expect legal action from a US government official who will act to protect our King from us. I don't think we should get sidetracked by outside arguements, but I can't tell what you mean. Can you be more specific?

Thanks.

Trotxâ

[Trotxâ]

danlorentz said:

The Wardship of the King Louis I—that is, the Cosa, the Senats and the Uppermost Cort of Talossa

A point of order, dear Count Lauriéir -

The King is a Ward of the Ziu and Cort, not the other way around. The Zui and Cort are the King's Guardians. As a point of order, may I ask you to revise your resolution, or to have it revised by whomever will formally proposed it to the Ziu?

Thanks!

Trotxâ

[Sir X. Pol Briga]

The sentence quoted above is long and convoluted. The last part of it prompts a request for clarification. It appears that you are saying that we should expect legal action from a US government official who will act to protect our King from us. I don't think we should get sidetracked by outside arguements, but I can't tell what you mean. Can you be more specific?

I don't mean to doubt the earnestness of any other person in this realm, but I do have reservations about the promptness of action. I am not a legal professional, however, I have seen a dramatic increase in the zeal by which various people, many who have a penchant for further political office, in pursuit of anything that even hints at being directed negatively against children. While we may not be ignoring the desire of the parent of the child, it would appear that the failure to act promptly could also cast Talossa in a negative light for the general public perception of the Kingdom as well as for potential new citizens.

XPB

[Capt. Sir Mick Preston]

X. Pôl Brigâ -

While your concerns have merit , if I may, I'd like to make a point of clarification. For any legal claim to be made against Talossa, some damage must have occured to the "victim". Almost all Criminal and Civil law has a Plantiff and a Denfendant, where the Plantiff is addressing the court for compensation for damage done , either physically or emotionally.

I can't see how Talossa has inflicted any damage on our King - I'm not even sure if he knows he's King!

I really, really doubt anyone with political asperations would make this an issue, either. I have yet to see anyone oppose the removal of the current King. What I have seen is the discussion of the proper method to do so.

I would hate to see you resign over this.

[Sir X. Pol Briga]

For any legal claim to be made against Talossa, some damage must have occured to the "victim"

The damage in this case may be arguable, but in the litigious climate of the US, even a sniff of possible damages can attract many underemployed lawyers. Some might argue that PR, whether good or bad, is PR for the Kingdom. In this case I cannot say strongly enough that if a group of people who have specifically asked to discontinue an association with a minor child by their parent (be it ever so tenuous and of origin with persons no longer associated with the group) they must immediately make an official statement. Immediately in my opinion would be within a week, which we are now beyond.

I see that the PM intends to bring this out of the hopper, which is good news, but I still cannot forsee a date that this question will be called, much less decided upon, and at this pace I would predict that it would be placed into the regular consideration for November, which does not befit the urgency that the action that in my opinion the topic deserves.

XPB