Discussion about 37RZ2

[Dréu Gavárþic'h]

Okay here goes:

37RZ2 - The "What's the Difference" Act.

I've had seriously mixed feelings on this for a while. Here's what I've decided:

1. I think it extremely silly that in Talossa we are allowed to join "real" nations, but not "micronations.

2. If they are "micronations" and not "real" nations. What exactly is the harm in joining them?

3. If I can't join the Kingdom of... Zathruadskfjsad;g without losing my citizenship, why can I be a U.S. citizen?

Could someone explain to me, why this bill was put into effect? No offense, Lord Hooligan, it just seems a little ridiculous.

[Sir Alexandreu Davinescu]

The law you actually have a problem with, then, would seem to be 25RZ50, which established twelve terms ago a policy of non-interaction with micronations. I believe this has served Talossa well, since it is so common to fall into traps of continual nonsense proclamations or foolish "wars" that do nothing but demean our national dignity. Inasmuch as I can tell, Talossa has flourished dramatically since the establishment of the Wall policy. I know you follow the Republic very closely and often have introduced measures that are rather similar to their policies, but I think this time you may be going a bit overboard... they have reestablished contact with L.O.S.S. out of seeming desperation at a national population of nineteen, and I don't think we are quite there yet.

Relevant law follows.


25RZ50 - The "Semi-Permeable Wall" Act

WHEREAS the overwhelming majority of Talossan citizens have no use or care for the bathtubbia antics and pretensions of the silly micronations out there --- beyond an encouraging sense of "we're been there, you too can succeed as a serious micronation" grounded in Talossa's historical founding in a Milwaukee teenager's bedroom; and

WHEREAS a vocal and influential minority of the Talossan Establishment (whatever that might be) violently opposes any and all contact with serious micronations out there, namely those exploring notions of "nationality" as created or (to paraphrase Benedict Anderson's book and concept of the same name) "imagined communities" and the hobby of "playing country"; and

WHEREAS the intellectual debate between those Talossans in the prior and other Talossans (whose interests in serious micronations are similar to how individual photography, gaming, conlang, and other hobby groups are often curious about other like groups due to a desire to learn from their ideas and expand their hobby's horizons) has oftentimes grown heated and intense and thereby shifted energies away from the teleological growth of Talossan institutions of government, culture, language, and society onto irrelevant viciousness about the meaning of Talossan "patriotism" as either "orthodoxy" or "diversity"; and

WHEREAS a "micronation" or a "nationette" or an "imagined community" or a micropatrological entity (all of which describes Talossa in broad terms of "we know it when we see it") ought to be Self-, and not Other-, legitimizing; that is, ought to be and is respected due to its domestic institutions, culture, and people;

THEREFORE the Ziu resolves that a "Semi-Permeable Wall" ought to be and is the Official External Policy of the Kingdom of Talossa. Specifically,

1. The Ziu stipulates that all official micronational diplomatic recognitions by the Government of Talossa, whether by legislation, executive fiat, or implicit policy, are hereby withdrawn and disavowed in the spirit of goodwill and friendship that they were initially offered; and

2. The Ziu stipulates by statute that the Government of Talossa will have no relations with any micronation in any form; and

3. The Ziu requests that the Prime Minister thank the Micronational Affairs Minister for his time, efforts, and service to the Kingdom, and then close that Ministry as contrary to the wishes of the Talossan people as expressed through their elected representatives; and

4. The Ziu requests that the Prime Minister thank his Envoys and Ambassadors, including his representative to the League of Secessionist States (L.O.S.S.), for their time, efforts, and service to the Kingdom, and then close all official micronational contacts, including Talossan membership in L.O.S.S.; and

5. The Ziu stipulates that no part of this Act is intended to limit the free speech and assembly rights of or discriminate against any and all Talossan citizens to privately associate with any individual of their own choosing, including citizens of other micronations.

Uréu q'estadra så: Greg Tisher - (ZPT-Vuode)

[Dréu Gavárþic'h]

I have no problem with Talossa not being able to engage in diplomatic relations with micronations. It's the fact that our citizens are prohibited from being citizens in other micronations. Please do not put words in my mouth

[Sir Alexandreu Davinescu]

alexandreu said:

I have no problem with Talossa not being able to engage in diplomatic relations with micronations. It's the fact that our citizens are prohibited from being citizens in other micronations. Please do not put words in my mouth

I didn't intend to do so, perhaps I just misunderstood. You have no problem with no diplomatic ties, you just want to be able to join other micronations?

[Dréu Gavárþic'h]

I personally have no need to join other micronations... frankly, I think that most of the other micronations are pretty damn lame. My point is that we do should have a right to join said micronations. I mean... even if we don't view these nationettes as nations but just clubs... am I not allowed to join any sort of club because I am a Talossan?

[Sir Alexandreu Davinescu]

That's a very different issue, and I guess I did misunderstand. Sorry about that.

Returning to the law, then, we can trace this line of thought further back, to 23RZ35. The reasoning presented in the law suggests that legislators believed there was a threat presented by a small country like ours, with a large population (almost exclusive) of cybercitizens, having members whose loyalties might lie with a micronation. Micronations resemble Talossa very much, with disproportionately large numbers of cybercitizens who interact almost exclusively online, and so this is a reasonable concern. 24RZ11, which has much the same effect, provides no rationale and accordingly contributes little to our understanding.

The questions is: whether or not these and other reasons still hold up?

Law follows.

WHEREAS, no nation on earth allows its own citizens to be "Dual Citizens" without some special legal dispensation; and

WHEREAS, citizenship in Talossa and friendship with non-Talossans are completely different matters, and one's true friends will obviously understand why Talossan citizenship is incompatible with activity in a friend's micronation; and

WHEREAS, because of Talossa's small population, it makes an enormous difference if even a handful of individuals are somehow loyal to foreign (and potentially hostile) heads of state;

THEREFORE, the Ziu hereby proclaims that Talossan citizenship is incompatible with any real or pretended citizenship in any "micronation."

Exception 1: such one-person, no-other-citizens-but-me imaginary places that individual Talossans may create as diversionary experiments, and which do not allow the recruiting of citizens for themselves.

Exception 2: The Ziu may make special individual exceptions to this Act, by law. Violations of this Act are considered to be treason, and the Uppermost Cort is empowered to enforce this Act accordingly.

Uréu q'estadra så: Robert Ben Madison - (PC-Vuode)

[Vit Caçeir]

agbdavis said:

I didn't intend to do so, perhaps I just misunderstood. You have no problem with no diplomatic ties, you just want to be able to join other micronations?

I will assume, for the time being, that Senator Davis is correct in this interpretation of Dreu's beliefs. If these are not your views, Dreu, do correct me.

Having citizenship in a micronation is essentially a recognition of that entity's statehood. For example, if I petitioned for citizenship in the Republic of Molossia, a well known micronation, I am recognizing that Molossia has nation-status even though the government of the Kingdom does not. Thus, my view and the Kingdom's views on Molossia's statehood are contradictory, which can cause problems, especially since I am a member of the Talossan government.

Additionally, for this scenario assume that you are the Supreme Emperor of the Insane Fascist Empire of Doughnutland, a micronation you made this morning. I am one of your new citizens, and I also hold Talossan citizenship. Because of this, you want me to become the Doughnutlandian ambassador to Talossa, but Talossa refuses because they don't "mingle" with micronations. Additionally, Talossa refuses to sign any treaties or open any embassies in Doughnutland, and refuses to recognize your existence. You're pretty miffed, right?

In my opinion, allowing citizenship in, but not interacting with, micronations is a contradictory stance which Talossa should avoid. Additionally, because there are so many different types of micronations (note the stark contrasts between the satirical Aerican Empire and the secessionist Dominion of British West Florida), each one needs to be interacted with differently, and relations can be severed merely because the Head of State decides he "doesn't want to play anymore". There is no uniformal diplomatic protocol in intermicronational relations, thus, in my opinion, Talossa should keep out of the whole mess to begin with.

However, I have a different question regarding this same law... The law states that a micronation:
1. claims a governmental organization and citizenry and
2. is not a member of the United Nations and
3. is not a member of the Unrepresented Nations and Peoples Organization and
4. is not officially recognized by the Kingdom of Talossa.

Consider for example the Palestinian Territories, which consider themselves an independent nation (as do many other states). They are not members of the U.N. or U.N.P.O., and to my knowledge, are not recognized by the Kingdom. Would one who considers himself a citizen of the Palestinian Territories be a citizen of a "Micronation"? What of Turkish Northern Cyprus or Tibet? I ask simply out of curiosity, as I am unsure as to how Talossa would act in such a situation.

EDIT: Awkward Grammar

[Sir Alexandreu Davinescu]

edwardwadas said:

However, I have a different question regarding this same law... The law states that a micronation:
1. claims a governmental organization and citizenry and
2. is not a member of the United Nations and
3. is not a member of the Unrepresented Nations and Peoples Organization and
4. is not officially recognized by the Kingdom of Talossa.

Consider for example the Palestinian Territories, which consider themselves an independent nation (as do many other states). They are not members of the U.N. or U.N.P.O., and to my knowledge, are not recognized by the Kingdom. Would one who considers himself a citizen of the Palestinian Territories be a citizen of a "Micronation"? What of Turkish Northern Cyprus or Tibet? I ask simply out of curiosity, as I am unsure as to how Talossa would act in such a situation.

EDIT: Awkward Grammar

Presumably this would come down to the decision by the Foreign Ministry and Seneschal regarding the legitimacy of those nations. If they are officially recognized, as I suspect they would be, then such a citizen would not be in breach of law. If they are not, which would be the less likely scenario, such a citizen would be in violation.

[Dréu Gavárþic'h]

But they're just clubs right? Isn't that really what a micronation is? It's an excuse to have a Flag and a language and have friends over etc. So why can't I join one? If it's just a club? That's my point. Should I not join the Tennis club at my school for fear of losing my Talossan citizenship?

[Vit Caçeir]

agbdavis said:

Presumably this would come down to the decision by the Foreign Ministry and Seneschal regarding the legitimacy of those nations. If they are officially recognized, as I suspect they would be, then such a citizen would not be in breach of law. If they are not, which would be the less likely scenario, such a citizen would be in violation.

Yes of course, naturally... however, I was referring to the stance we take on such unrecognized nations as Northern Cyprus and the Palestinian Territories. Unlike nations like Taiwan, Tibet, or Somalialand, taking any official stance in the legitimacy of these states could cause quite a bit of controversy in the Kingdom due to the tense political debate regarding these states' authenticities.

So seeing as we don't take a stance regarding these states, I assume that we'd make a decision when and if such a person were ever to seek Talossan citizenship?

[Vit Caçeir]

alexandreu said:

But they're just clubs right?

Most micronational Heads of State would disagree.

[Dréu Gavárþic'h]

Okay fine then... they're nations! So I can join them right? I mean... I can be a cit of the U.S.

[Vit Caçeir]

alexandreu said:

So I can join them right?

According to law, no.

[Dréu Gavárþic'h]

That's the point... the law makes no sense because:

1. If we view them as nations we should be able to join them.
2. If we view them as clubs we should be able to joint them.

[Vit Caçeir]

alexandreu said:

1. If we view them as nations we should be able to join them.

We don't.

alexandreu said:

2. If we view them as clubs we should be able to joint them.

We don't.

Apparently, your views on this issue are extremely black and white. There is such thing as an illegitimate nation, you know. Ever heard of the C.S.A.? They certainly weren't a club... but most states did not recognize them as a nation.