Let's talk about our provinces

[Alèx Soleighlfred]

Azul, my friends!

Someone has to do a dirty job of making big proposals that might cause backlash. I think we can safely describe current state of affairs in Talossa as critical in terms of overall activity leves (corect me if you think I'm wrong).

I'm fairly sure that one of the reasons for that is lack of provincial activity (or, if not exactly a reason, it's still a major contributing factor). So, something needs to be done about it.

Last posts in each province are in June, which has to do with Senator races. You see, ALL recent posts are about Senator candidacies, because nothing else happens. Florencia's last post was in October, 2017. It's more than a 1/2 year. Apart from that, Vuode has last post in the beginning of this year, Maricopa - in the end of last year. Other provinces still lack posts, in some provinces there are only 1 or 2 active citizens, their messages being of "guys why is nothing happening?" type, and if you think that isn't the case, maybe you're just used to Talossa being kind of dead and that's why you don't see a problem.

Provinces are there to increase activity and efficiently organize administration. They fail both of the tasks, because instead of being efficient, provinces have to be literally dragged not even into activity, but at least into electing their most important officials (and even that sometimes doesn't happen in time).

This is simply because Talossa doesn't need 8 provinces at current level of activity and citizen membership. 8 provinces drag us behind and contribute to the viscious cycle of inactivity. Nothing happens because nothing happens and people get used to it. I don't care it's traditionally been so many provinces: this doesn't work and has to be ditched.

My proposal is to ditch our current provincial system and come up with a radically new one. I don't think Talossa needs more than 3 provinces. I think we could afford 3 relatively active provinces instead of 8 dead ones.

Before proceeding into how we should do this, I want to know whether my fellow citizens think that would be a good idea.

Thank you.

[Eðo Grischun]

I totally agree.

The provinces should, somehow. merge 2 to 1.

Vuode-Maxhestic for the win.

[Alèx Soleighlfred]

Glad to hear that! 2 to 1 would be 4, and I was thinking even 3, and here's why:
2 provinces could be, probably, even dangerous, because it could split one country into two subcountries and that might not be what we want
3 provinces are more balanced and each will still have a considerable amount of activity. Provincial elections would be much more fun, too: there won't be uncontested elections like there are now.
Of course, should we find out we could afford 4, we could add it subsequently, so 3 is just a safe bet to start with. Chances are, Talossa will feel a lot better if we do so.

[Ian Plätschisch]

Three still seems like too few to me. I could get on board with having four provinces though.

[Danihél Roðgarüt]

Boo!

[Sir Alexandreu Davinescu]

I don't see the logic, myself. Why would more people per province cause people to start interacting when they're not interacting on a national level, anyway?

The problem with Talossan stagnation is that there are no stakes. It doesn't really matter much what happens with the elections, since very little gets done no matter which parties are in power. And I don't blame anyone for that -- it's unimaginably hard to run a government in these circumstances and get things done.

Past efforts at jumpstarting participation have focused on a few things:
* Recruitment, so fresh blood and many hands could get conversations going.
* New cultural programs, like game competitions, started by the government hoping to draw people in.
* Structural reforms that moved around offices or imaginary lines.

But you can't recruit interesting people to an uninteresting place where nothing is happening, so a lot of new recruits tend to be interested in things that aren't really community-building enterprises, like titles or the like.

And it's hard to start a game or competition in a Talossa where there aren't enough people to have existing levels of interest in each other, since otherwise your tournament is just competing with other venues that are dedicated to that pursuit and, hence, do it a lot better. I might go play chess with my friends, or I might play with strangers on an app that suits me well, but why would I play with strangers here (some of whom nurse unending grievances)?

And structural reforms (like this one, sorry) never provide incentive to get involved.


Why do people do Talossa? They do it because they like something that's already existing and want to be a part of it (sometimes the language, heraldry, history, or general weird fun) or they want to make an impact they otherwise can't make (getting elected, writing laws, trying cases). Our current problem is that there's way more people interested in those second things than the first things. We're talking people who want to campaign and/or wield power, people who have old grudges they want to satisfy, people who really like some aspect of a law or procedure and want to see it happen in Talossa. This is the great imbalance that has been poisoning us for years, and it's why a raging liberal like myself is a stalwart Talossan conservative: if we get rid of all the old Talossan stuff and traditions, then there's little reason to be Talossa, since it just becomes a club about nothing. That's why I have generally opposed eliminating the monarchy, our territory, our existing base of law, and even our history (inasmuch as starting afresh would be possible), as some advocate. Even the silliness in our laws is valuable.

This plan to combine provinces wouldn't work, and would even hurt... it would be one more retreat from the Talossan culture that ultimately gives people a reason to be here.

You want a plan that will work? Incentive culture stuff with political stuff:
* The winner of a meme contest gets to write a PD that the Seneschal will pass.
* Elections in my province will no longer go by voting, but instead by whoever can make the best speech on YouTube.
* Slim down the government to three people (all you really need at this point).
* Eliminate the stated purpose of the military (which has never really interested many people) and instead make it a cultural thing. Write a poem in Talossan, boom, you're a sergeant. Get cracking on a short story if you want a promotion.
* Make it the stated and explicit policy of the government that old grudges are killing us, are stupid, and are dead. I'll fly to New Zealand and give Miestra a big fat kiss on the lips to celebrate.
* Get active on social media and start being snarky and weird with it. Maybe it will catch on.

Vote RUMP and we'll do some of this. Or maybe another party will do some of it, that would be good too.

[Alèx Soleighlfred]

>Why would more people per province cause people to start interacting when they're not interacting on a national level, anyway?

You have a point, S:reu Davinescu, in saying that we're not even active on a national scale, let alone provincial. Neither do I believe that cutting the number of provinces will suddenly give incentive or reason to be involved in Talossa. Far from it. There's a lot to be done to give this country a compelling raison-d'être, and the ideas you've listed are all valid.

>"They do it because they like something that's already existing and want to be a part of it (sometimes the language, heraldry, history, or general weird fun) or they want to make an impact they otherwise can't make (getting elected, writing laws, trying cases)."

Hmm.. When I get elected, I think I'll propose a law to fight this phenomenon! I'm just kidding of course.

These rather medievalist ethics - monarchy, heraldry, even language - are what drew me here in the first place. I was never initially interested in politics, and (as my fellow partymaker S:reu da Dhi could attest) I was always on a less initiative end of the spectrum. Even now, when I'm kind of engaged in policy, I regard Talossan culture as it's more important aspect. So I understand and support your stance on preserving Talossan tradition, it's one of the hallmarks of the country (and I have to confess that I'm still unsure about ditching the blackletter gothic style of my newspaper in favor of a modern one, that could be classified as a flavor mistake).

>And structural reforms (like this one, sorry) never provide incentive to get involved.

Again, that's not the point. Hell, we could annex Cr... eehm Crete for example, make a new province of it and the hype won't do a lasting effect on our activity, because that's not what activity is about. Remapping provinces won't solve this problem.

But there's another problem. In any given province, there are going to be active and inactive people, and inactive people would probably form a majority of population. Given how many citizens we have, and how many provinces we have, we are just oversaturated with offices, positions, it's hard to fill them, some are only filled nominally, and it's nearly impossible to have any provincial competition. There's no point in having 20 positions for 15 people, 10 of whom are inactive (I'm slightly exaggerating, but you get my point). A province should be a community, not a person, not a couple of persons.

This problem is obvious and it does exist, and I hope we don't try to steer away from it by redirecting attention to other problems, that exist as well and together comprise a rather unfortunate situation our Kingdom finds itself it. What I'm suggesting isn't a panacea, but it's a part of treatment.

Merging of provinces won't destroy neither our history nor our culture. It will rather enrich both.

Vote MRPT, because I'm in MRPT so I root for MRPT.

:)

[Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN]

I'm radically neutral on the subject of provincial mergers, with three caveats:

- the Constitution of Fiôva is based directly on the old Constitution of the Talossan Republic, and if there is any provincial merger I would fight to preserve it;
- I know that Vuodean Free Democrats are very opposed to their province being merged;
- fewer provinces = smaller Senäts = much more at stake in Senatorial elections.

[Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN]

Perhaps I should specify further - personally (not as FreeDems policy), I am 100% of provincial self-determination. If provinces want to merge, all good. If they don't want to, they shouldn't be pressured into it.

[Sir Alexandreu Davinescu]

Jun 21, 2018 11:54:23 GMT -6 Alèx Soleighlfred said:

But there's another problem. In any given province, there are going to be active and inactive people, and inactive people would probably form a majority of population. Given how many citizens we have, and how many provinces we have, we are just oversaturated with offices, positions, it's hard to fill them, some are only filled nominally, and it's nearly impossible to have any provincial competition. There's no point in having 20 positions for 15 people, 10 of whom are inactive (I'm slightly exaggerating, but you get my point). A province should be a community, not a person, not a couple of persons.

You only engage with my main points in one respect -- how having too many empty offices is bad -- but I already said we should have three people running the government and holding all relevant offices, plus I suggested a wholesale alteration of the empty military. Also, we should eliminate the whole civil service. That whole service has basically played out exactly how I said it would: no one is interested in doing all the boring parts of a job and none of the fun parts. I am grateful at least that I got the change in there to not have automatically created a ton of empty secretariats, otherwise it would be even worse.

Jun 21, 2018 11:54:23 GMT -6 Alèx Soleighlfred said:

This problem is obvious and it does exist, and I hope we don't try to steer away from it by redirecting attention to other problems, that exist as well and together comprise a rather unfortunate situation our Kingdom finds itself it. What I'm suggesting isn't a panacea, but it's a part of treatment.

What other problems? We're talking about the same problem, but your solution is a bad one. Mine are better. We should do them instead, because they might work.

[Istefan Perþonest]

I'd actually be tempted to . . . hmmm . . . actually, I should write this idea up as a proposal for Benito, and if it gets implemented, all Talossa can learn if it's a good idea from there.

As far as no one willing to do boring-only jobs, I'm going to note that there's not much interesting about the duties of Burgermeister of Inland Revenue (count money, write reports, mail things), or Electoral Commission member (verifying vote counts), or being Arvitieir Prima in Benito (trying to herd the provincial legislature into existing). But the point in general is true.

[Alèx Soleighlfred]

Jun 21, 2018 16:48:00 GMT -6 Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN said:

- the Constitution of Fiôva is based directly on the old Constitution of the Talossan Republic, and if there is any provincial merger I would fight to preserve it;

I think that makes sense. I mean if we were to merge provinces, at least one of them would have to be, how do I say, with Fiôvan flavor.

Jun 21, 2018 16:48:00 GMT -6 Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN said:

- I know that Vuodean Free Democrats are very opposed to their province being merged;

I'm still torn which of our provinces is the least alive one - Vuode of Florencia. That's a tight match.

Jun 21, 2018 16:48:00 GMT -6 Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN said:

- fewer provinces = smaller Senäts = much more at stake in Senatorial elections.

Is this a good or a bad thing? I personally see no problem, i saw someone point out that lack of high stakes is what partially keeps Talossa stagnant.

Jun 21, 2018 16:48:00 GMT -6 Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN said:

I am 100% of provincial self-determination. If provinces want to merge, all good. If they don't want to, they shouldn't be pressured into it.

Honestly this is a tricky one. I understand the logic behind desire for self-determination, and I envision some kinds of referenda if the mergers are to be implemented. But after all, provinces are still provinces of the Kingdom of Talossa, and there can be national-level decisions regarding them. It all depends on _how_ this is implemented, but before deciding on _how_ we should decide _whether_.

Jun 21, 2018 20:21:48 GMT -6 Sir Alexandreu Davinescu said:

we should have three people running the government and holding all relevant offices, plus I suggested a wholesale alteration of the empty military.

Which will magically bring all our 8 provinces to life.

Jun 21, 2018 20:21:48 GMT -6 Sir Alexandreu Davinescu said:

What other problems? We're talking about the same problem, but your solution is a bad one. Mine are better. We should do them instead, because they might work.

Yours are good, mine are good. But obviously any given illness can be treared with one and only one pill, not a combination of treatments?

I'm not against your soluions, some of them are rather fun. But the greater problem of Talossapathy is multi-faceted and complicated, and neither my nor your solutions are panacea. I was talking about one aspect of it, provincial inactivity, which is one of many reasons for the overall crisis (but not the only reason of course). It's not only about too many offices, too. It's about some of our provinces looking more like ghost towns with sole desoriented wanderers. My structural reform is not there to suddenly make Talossa bursting with life. It's there to make sure, that when other reforms make Talossa... I mean to return Talossa to greatness are implemented, our provinces will be able to enjoy activity too, and not drag us behind.

[Munditenens Tresplet]

I respectfully disagree with the concept of merging provinces. Although the provincial boards may stagnate from time to time, someone's provincial identity may be crucial to their Talossan identity. I, for one, see myself as uniquely Maricopan. We have our own cultural and governmental quirks and intricacies; that there was a stalemate between two declared candidates for Leader of the Cleivi during the last Cosa, for example, was a uniquely Maricopan thing and not simply an oversight by those who are declared members of the Cabana.

Maybe these are just my experiences as a Maricopan and not shared with members of other provinces or even members of my own. But I thought my personal experience was worth contributing to this discussion.

[Alèx Soleighlfred]

Thanks for your contribution, Dien!

Why, I myself am a Cézembrean to the bone. And all the Cézembrean quirks and stuff are too important to me. But I'm willing to sacrifice it all for something better.

I do realize there will be some backlash, maybe we'll need some comromise, and maybe nothing will happen at all. I don't know yet, let's see.

[Sir Alexandreu Davinescu]

Jun 21, 2018 23:12:01 GMT -6 Alèx Soleighlfred said:

Which will magically bring all our 8 provinces to life.

Yeah, pretty much. I think if we do all of those things, we stand a good chance of bringing all our 8 provinces to life.

Jun 21, 2018 23:12:01 GMT -6 Alèx Soleighlfred said:

Yours are good, mine are good. But obviously any given illness can be treared with one and only one pill, not a combination of treatments?

The difference is that yours is a huge shift that alters fundamental aspects of our government and threatens -- at least plausibly, even if you don't think certainly -- to damage one of our cultural and historical treasures. Mine are mostly easy and cost us little. Let's do them and then, if they don't work, try riskier things. I'll even support you in that instance.