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Post by Þon Txoteu É. Davinescu on Feb 1, 2017 17:06:50 GMT -6
The purpose of this Amendment is to correct verbiage & terminology issues with the latest revision of the El Lexhatx, specifically Title D, Section 2, Sub-Section 3 and attached Sub-Sub-Sections, renaming positions and clarifying duties within the Interior Ministry.
Firstly, title D.2.3. currently reads as follows:
2.3 The Interior Minister, who shall combine the roles of Defence and Immigration Minister as set forth in Organic Law XII.4 and XII.5, and shall head the following Bureaus. The Minister may appoint Deputy Ministers to be in charge of each Büreu, and the Civil Service Commission may appoint Permanent Secretaries to each Büreu, to work under the direction of the Minister and any Deputy Ministries.
In this “… shall combine the roles of Defence and Immigration Minister” Defense is misspelled.
Secondly, as the current status of the heads of the Bureaus of Defense, Immigration and Home Affairs places the three as Deputies, their full titles should be corrected to:
Deputy Minister of the Interior for Defense (DMinInt-Def)
Deputy Minister of the Interior for Immigration (DminInt-Img)
Deputy Minister of the Interior for Home Affairs (DMinInt-HA)
However, the current duties of the three Deputy Ministers of the Interior Ministry have their positions more as Department Heads or Secretaries. This would place their appointment and retention in the hands of the Commissioner of Civil Affairs.
Secretary of Defense (SecDef)
Secretary of Immigration (SecImg)
Secretary of Home Affairs (SecHA)
Lastly, the cut-and-paste modifications when Defense & Immigration were brought under the Interior Ministry need to be corrected, either way, in accordance with the direction deemed appropriate… either maintaining as Deputy Ministers or restructuring to Secretaries.
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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on Feb 1, 2017 17:12:27 GMT -6
The purpose of this Amendment is to correct verbiage & terminology issues with the latest revision of the El Lexhatx, specifically Title D, Section 2, Sub-Section 3 and attached Sub-Sub-Sections, renaming positions and clarifying duties within the Interior Ministry. Firstly, title D.2.3. currently reads as follows: 2.3 The Interior Minister, who shall combine the roles of Defence and Immigration Minister as set forth in Organic Law XII.4 and XII.5, and shall head the following Bureaus. The Minister may appoint Deputy Ministers to be in charge of each Büreu, and the Civil Service Commission may appoint Permanent Secretaries to each Büreu, to work under the direction of the Minister and any Deputy Ministries. In this “… shall combine the roles of Defence and Immigration Minister” Defense is misspelled. Secondly, as the current status of the heads of the Bureaus of Defense, Immigration and Home Affairs places the three as Deputies, their full titles should be corrected to: Deputy Minister of the Interior for Defense (DMinInt-Def) Deputy Minister of the Interior for Immigration (DminInt-Img) Deputy Minister of the Interior for Home Affairs (DMinInt-HA) However, the current duties of the three Deputy Ministers of the Interior Ministry have their positions more as Department Heads or Secretaries. This would place their appointment and retention in the hands of the Commissioner of Civil Affairs. Secretary of Defense (SecDef) Secretary of Immigration (SecImg) Secretary of Home Affairs (SecHA) Lastly, the cut-and-paste modifications when Defense & Immigration were brought under the Interior Ministry need to be corrected, either way, in accordance with the direction deemed appropriate… either maintaining as Deputy Ministers or restructuring to Secretaries. Defence is not misspelt, it adheres to the British rules of orthography, which is the standard for Talossan English.
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Ian Plätschisch
Senator for Maritiimi-Maxhestic
Posts: 4,001
Talossan Since: 3-21-2015
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Post by Ian Plätschisch on Feb 1, 2017 18:42:31 GMT -6
The purpose of this Amendment is to correct verbiage & terminology issues with the latest revision of the El Lexhatx, specifically Title D, Section 2, Sub-Section 3 and attached Sub-Sub-Sections, renaming positions and clarifying duties within the Interior Ministry. Firstly, title D.2.3. currently reads as follows: 2.3 The Interior Minister, who shall combine the roles of Defence and Immigration Minister as set forth in Organic Law XII.4 and XII.5, and shall head the following Bureaus. The Minister may appoint Deputy Ministers to be in charge of each Büreu, and the Civil Service Commission may appoint Permanent Secretaries to each Büreu, to work under the direction of the Minister and any Deputy Ministries. In this “… shall combine the roles of Defence and Immigration Minister” Defense is misspelled. Secondly, as the current status of the heads of the Bureaus of Defense, Immigration and Home Affairs places the three as Deputies, their full titles should be corrected to: Deputy Minister of the Interior for Defense (DMinInt-Def) Deputy Minister of the Interior for Immigration (DminInt-Img) Deputy Minister of the Interior for Home Affairs (DMinInt-HA) However, the current duties of the three Deputy Ministers of the Interior Ministry have their positions more as Department Heads or Secretaries. This would place their appointment and retention in the hands of the Commissioner of Civil Affairs. Secretary of Defense (SecDef) Secretary of Immigration (SecImg) Secretary of Home Affairs (SecHA) Lastly, the cut-and-paste modifications when Defense & Immigration were brought under the Interior Ministry need to be corrected, either way, in accordance with the direction deemed appropriate… either maintaining as Deputy Ministers or restructuring to Secretaries. I would suggest looking at threads for other bills, and formatting the actual text of the bill in that fashion (right now, it is a little confusing trying to figure how this bill would change existing statutes). Justification for the changes are provided either in the WHEREAS clauses or in subsequent posts. Everyone here is more than happy to help you if you have any questions.
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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on Feb 1, 2017 18:47:12 GMT -6
Oh, sorry. I had not realised that this was a proposed bill. My point stands, and adding to S:reu Plätschisch’s comment, I would like to add: S:reu Davis, please be so kind as to familiarise yourself with the procedures for drafting and Hoppering bills; these guidelines are essential for effectively providing the other Members of the Ziu with information about reasoning and changes to be made to a Body of Law. If you have any doubts or questions, hesitate not to ask any Member of the Ziu. I am sure everybody will be happy to help you out.
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Post by Þon Txoteu É. Davinescu on Feb 1, 2017 19:02:25 GMT -6
The purpose of this Amendment is to correct verbiage & terminology issues with the latest revision of the El Lexhatx, specifically Title D, Section 2, Sub-Section 3 and attached Sub-Sub-Sections, renaming positions and clarifying duties within the Interior Ministry. Firstly, title D.2.3. currently reads as follows: 2.3 The Interior Minister, who shall combine the roles of Defence and Immigration Minister as set forth in Organic Law XII.4 and XII.5, and shall head the following Bureaus. The Minister may appoint Deputy Ministers to be in charge of each Büreu, and the Civil Service Commission may appoint Permanent Secretaries to each Büreu, to work under the direction of the Minister and any Deputy Ministries. In this “… shall combine the roles of Defence and Immigration Minister” Defense is misspelled. Secondly, as the current status of the heads of the Bureaus of Defense, Immigration and Home Affairs places the three as Deputies, their full titles should be corrected to: Deputy Minister of the Interior for Defense (DMinInt-Def) Deputy Minister of the Interior for Immigration (DminInt-Img) Deputy Minister of the Interior for Home Affairs (DMinInt-HA) However, the current duties of the three Deputy Ministers of the Interior Ministry have their positions more as Department Heads or Secretaries. This would place their appointment and retention in the hands of the Commissioner of Civil Affairs. Secretary of Defense (SecDef) Secretary of Immigration (SecImg) Secretary of Home Affairs (SecHA) Lastly, the cut-and-paste modifications when Defense & Immigration were brought under the Interior Ministry need to be corrected, either way, in accordance with the direction deemed appropriate… either maintaining as Deputy Ministers or restructuring to Secretaries. I would suggest looking at threads for other bills, and formatting the actual text of the bill in that fashion (right now, it is a little confusing trying to figure how this bill would change existing statutes). Justification for the changes are provided either in the WHEREAS clauses or in subsequent posts. Everyone here is more than happy to help you if you have any questions. I know Ian. I wanted to flesh out the idea before formal structuring. I can go ahead and format it if it would help. P.S. Didn't know about the British "C"... thanks for the heads up
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Post by Ián B. Anglatzarâ on Feb 2, 2017 5:02:21 GMT -6
I would suggest looking at threads for other bills, and formatting the actual text of the bill in that fashion (right now, it is a little confusing trying to figure how this bill would change existing statutes). Justification for the changes are provided either in the WHEREAS clauses or in subsequent posts. Everyone here is more than happy to help you if you have any questions. I know Ian. I wanted to flesh out the idea before formal structuring. I can go ahead and format it if it would help. P.S. Didn't know about the British "C"... thanks for the heads up Talossa has always modeled itself after the European parliamentary system. Thus I am opposed to renaming Ministers Secretaries.
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Sir C. M. Siervicül
Posts: 9,636
Talossan Since: 8-13-2005
Knight Since: 7-28-2007
Motto: Nonnisi Deo serviendum
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Post by Sir C. M. Siervicül on Feb 2, 2017 7:03:13 GMT -6
Talossa has always modeled itself after the European parliamentary system. Thus I am opposed to renaming Ministers Secretaries. I think the suggestion is that these should be nonpolitical civil service positions (which would be secretaries per the civil service reform act from a few Cosas ago). Not sure if I agree with that, but that's how I understand the proposal.
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Post by Ián B. Anglatzarâ on Feb 2, 2017 7:10:26 GMT -6
Talossa has always modeled itself after the European parliamentary system. Thus I am opposed to renaming Ministers Secretaries. I think the suggestion is that these should be nonpolitical civil service positions (which would be secretaries per the civil service reform act from a few Cosas ago). Not sure if I agree with that, but that's how I understand the proposal. Ah. OK, in that case I retract my opposition. Thanks!
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Post by Þon Txoteu É. Davinescu on Feb 2, 2017 16:36:34 GMT -6
Yes... Defence, Immigration and Home Affairs were reorganized and basically demoted. Therefore, they need either specific titles (eg. Deputy Minister of the Interior for Defence) or correct restructuring to Departments, thus making them Secretaries
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Ian Plätschisch
Senator for Maritiimi-Maxhestic
Posts: 4,001
Talossan Since: 3-21-2015
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Post by Ian Plätschisch on Feb 2, 2017 16:49:27 GMT -6
While I do agree that the titles of these Ministers be changed to "Deputy Minister of the Interior for [insert]," I would not want to change them from subministries to departments. I don't really see the need for it, and the Civil Service has not been functional since it was created.
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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on Feb 2, 2017 17:24:27 GMT -6
The reason why these positions are called (Deputy) Ministries of [Department] is owed to the fact the Ministry of Interior was an amalgamation of these previous Ministries into one. Therefore, tradition dictates the titles.
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Ian Plätschisch
Senator for Maritiimi-Maxhestic
Posts: 4,001
Talossan Since: 3-21-2015
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Post by Ian Plätschisch on Feb 2, 2017 17:35:29 GMT -6
The reason why these positions are called (Deputy) Ministries of [Department] is owed to the fact the Ministry of Interior was an amalgamation of these previous Ministries into one. Therefore, tradition dictates the titles. But "Deputy Minister of Immigration" makes it sound like there is an accompanying "Minister of Immigration," but there is not. Because the Ministry of the Interior is an amalgamation, the deputy ministers of the constituent sub-ministries should have "Deputy Minister of the Interior" in their titles.
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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on Feb 2, 2017 17:40:15 GMT -6
The reason why these positions are called (Deputy) Ministries of [Department] is owed to the fact the Ministry of Interior was an amalgamation of these previous Ministries into one. Therefore, tradition dictates the titles. But "Deputy Minister of Immigration" makes it sound like there is an accompanying "Minister of Immigration," but there is not. Because the Ministry of the Interior is an amalgamation, the deputy ministers of the constituent sub-ministries should have "Deputy Minister of Interior" in their titles. Not quite so. You could say that the Interior Minister heads all departments. He has control over what happens, and Immigration, Home and Cestour Affairs, etc. are all under his supervision. Now, he cannot supervise all at the same time, so he appoints Deputies. These deputies, however, do not all have the same duties within the Interior Ministry. Rather, they head departments within the Ministry. Now, follow my train of thought: They are Deputy [Interior] Ministers of [the Department, within the Interior Ministry, of] Immigration/Home Affairs/Blabla. The Interior Minister is the Minister of Immigration, the Minister of Home Affairs, etc. at the same time. He is just not called by these names, but rather by a superordinate designation.
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Ian Plätschisch
Senator for Maritiimi-Maxhestic
Posts: 4,001
Talossan Since: 3-21-2015
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Post by Ian Plätschisch on Feb 2, 2017 17:50:16 GMT -6
The title "Deputy" still implies subordination to the Interior Minister, but I think contracting the title to exclude a reference to the Interior Ministry is confusing, since these deputies work within the Interior Ministry.
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Post by Þon Txoteu É. Davinescu on Feb 2, 2017 18:33:05 GMT -6
If that was the case guys, the Minister of the Interior would be properly styled
Minister of the Interior, Defence, Immigration and Home Affairs.
As an Organizational & Business Leadership major, set to graduate with Honors in May... I can tell you that the current structuring is a sloppy cut and paste job that needs revision.
Minister of the Interior Deputy Minister of the Interior for Defence Deputy Minister of the Interior for Immigration Deputy Minister of the Interior for Home Affairs
The above styling would be more straight forward, clearly state the important role these three Talossans (Deputy Minister) and the specific Bureau they head. Yes, the MinInt is officially the "head" of the three Bureaus, however, on a day to day business... the DMinInts run the Bureaus. If their just place holders, why have the positions and if so, why not just wipe them from the country?
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