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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2016 18:19:09 GMT -6
Anyone who has studied Latin for more than 10 minutes knows that Latin has cases. These are lost on most modern Romance languages (Romanian is a notable exception, still containing the nominative, accusative, genitive, dative, and vocative cases). Therefore, as an expression of the Talossan language's connection with Latin and other Romance languages, I'd like to propose an optional accusative prefix, çe(d)- for masculine nouns and ça(d)- for feminine nouns (the parenthetical "d" is added in case the noun being prefixed starts with a vowel), that would mark the object of a transitive verb.
This prefix would never be required in speech or writing when the sentence is in SVO order, but, if used, it would allow free-er word order. It could create the ability to stress of parts of sentences via placing a sentence element before a verb, true to the Turkish influence on the Berbers prior to their flight to the northern Mediterranean.
Sentences that don't use the accusative prefix would have to retain the subject-verb-object word order in order to stave off ambiguity, while sentences with the prefix can have all six permutations (SVO, SOV, OSV, OVS, VSO, VOS) without fear of misunderstanding.
Also, adjectives would have to agree in case. Adjectives describing nouns in the accusative case will also take the accusative prefix, also agreeing in gender and adding a buffer d for adjectives starting with vowels.
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Post by Ián B. Anglatzarâ on Oct 6, 2016 0:41:03 GMT -6
Oh, a prospective CÚG member! That's welcome!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2016 6:42:23 GMT -6
Wow, it'd be pretty awesome to help administer my favorite conlang!
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King John
King of Talossa
Posts: 2,415
Talossan Since: 5-7-2005
Knight Since: 11-30-2005
Motto: COR UNUM
King Since: 3-14-2007
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Post by King John on Oct 6, 2016 10:59:52 GMT -6
This seems like an intriguing proposal. It reminds me a little of the "a" marker in Spanish before personal direct objects. "El perro ama a la muchacha" = "The dog loves the girl." But you *could* invert, and say "A la muchacha ama el perro", and it sounds a bit odd but the meaning is quite clear.
I don't know whether you'd naturally get the complete "six permutations" like you do in Latin. (Amat puella canem, Canis puellam amat, etc.)
Are there any languages with an optional case-marker that's used to override word position? I don't know of any, but like I say ... intriguing.
— John R
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2016 11:46:02 GMT -6
The Turkish accusative suffix is only used for specific direct objects. There aren't any optional accusative case markers that I know of, but that's the beauty of it: we'd be the first users of this feature, and it's natural enough to be believable.
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Ián Tamorán S.H.
Chief Justice of the Uppermost Court
Proud Philosopher of Talossa
Posts: 1,401
Talossan Since: 9-27-2010
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Post by Ián Tamorán S.H. on Oct 6, 2016 14:45:54 GMT -6
There are a wide list of possible cases. We are used to Nominative, Vocative, Accusative, Genitive, Dative and Ablative. But there is also Causal, Locative, Instrumental ... and a whole (possible) host more. Similarly, not all languages restrict themselves to just three genders. And it is possible to class nouns as Concrete Inanimate, Animate-but-not-human, Human and Abstract.
We can make a language as complex an intricate as we wish: but we have to remember that a language is used for communication. Two of the three most widely used languages (English and Chinese) have (mostly) dropped case-marking endings - in English we have just the s to indicate genitive and plural (with different spellings), and declension of the pronouns (he/him/his, etc.). In verbs we have (largely) just the endings of (null), -s, -ing and -ed: the bulk of most tenses are formed using auxiliary verbs.
As real-world languages evolve they become simpler in some parts of their structure, so that it easier to rapidly construct valid sentences (utterances). When I say "those white cows in the field over there" I don't have to know the grammatical gender of "cow", nor how to make the adjective "white" agree in plurality and gender with "cows". "What colour are they?" .. "white". The answer to that question also does not need to know those things - but in French (for example) you would (well, might) have to know, before you could answer.
All six orders of SVO, SOV, etc., are in use in different natural languages. Allowing all six of them to be used regularly in just one language is (IMHO) just a source of complication. French has less intricate grammar than Latin, and English less than French, and so on. If we want Talossan to be used in communication instead of "just for fun" then we have to look at keeping it as simple and elegant as we can.
Though "just for fun" is acceptable too - Talossa is (of course!) different from elsewhere.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2016 15:10:11 GMT -6
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Hooligan
Squirrel King of Arms; Cunstaval to Maricopa
Posts: 7,325
Talossan Since: 7-12-2005
Motto: PRIMA CAPIAM POCULA
Baron Since: 11-20-2005
Count Since: 9-8-2012
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Post by Hooligan on Oct 6, 2016 17:33:44 GMT -6
Azul, In ziscußiuns över aceasta idéa, el regeu, el Seneschal, es éu tiennent viensas recoxhitats: - Noi credent qe c'estadra pü Talossan schi ingen çoiçéu pr'iens "marqeu del caseu acuçatíu" estadra 'n moct compläts, anstada d'iensa förfixa.
- Viensa raziun pr'acest isch qe ça permitadra l'útzil del marqeu avant q'articais es altreux pärts da discuors, es noi piensent qe c'e impirtint (come viens exampal sub mostra).
- L'idéa sembla similar àl "a personal" in Espanol es l'útzil del moct "pe" com'iensa preposiziun acuçatíu in Romaniesc.
- Come in acestilor glheþen (sorors à Talossan), noi credent qe l'útzil d'iensa preposiziun estadra el çoiçéu corect per Talossan.
- Þeoriçéu q'el Talossan "pa" ("pad" avant qe vocais) probavalmint isch (es imrè tent estescu, ainda qe non c'esteva zescriuat propramint come sa) avalaval per exactamint acest cünsuetüd.
- Acest moct ("pa", qi c'esteva incestourat "on", exactamint com'isch el Romaniesc "pe") detxa isch uçat per l'indicaziun del datíu d'intereçù, mas créu qe toct qe säpent da "pa" pirneça sieu ánalog à "pe", comprís sieu útzil potentzial com'iensa preposiziun acuçatíu in Talossan.
Exampais d'acestilor cünsuetüds da "pa": - Com'iens datíu d'intereçù: L'avendeziun breneva pad eia. [L'Angleasca uça "on" aicì ocsà.]
- Com'iens marqeu del caseu acuçatíu: Pa la criança ama el caciun. [Sà'starh, ¿"pa+el/la" elidadra à "pel/pal"? Penséu qe non.]
- Com'iens "pa personal" similar àl "a personal" in Espanol: Çerçéu pa 'n secretar. (C'e sondreu qe "Çerçéu 'n secretar"; quist indicatadra qe el secretar c'e'n perziun cognheçada.) [¿Elida "pa+ün(a)/'n" à "p'iens(a)"? Penséu qe non.]
Sa...l'útzil da "pa" pr'acest c'e viensa idéa. Hi estevent altras idéas ziscutadas ocsà. Cresti postarha d'acestilor bentopt.....
--Hool
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Ian Plätschisch
Senator for Maritiimi-Maxhestic
Posts: 4,001
Talossan Since: 3-21-2015
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Post by Ian Plätschisch on Oct 6, 2016 17:36:46 GMT -6
So... no? I tend to find that a small amount of word-centric complexity adds to the beauty and elegance of a language. I am neither a poet nor a linguist, but I reckon this change would be great for poets, and that everyone else would ignore it. Poets, especially those who write in forms that are very strict (such as a sonnet), like to have as many words and word orders as possible, in order to get the meter and rhyme scheme to work out right. I'm sure that any Talossan poet (if there are any) would appreciate having six acceptable word orders to choose from. Normal people couldn't care less if their words rhyme or can be sung to the tune of Battle Hymn of the Republic (that is to say, if their words have a meter or not), and just want to communicate their ideas as quickly as possible. Thus, this idea probably wouldn't get much traction with most speakers, but that certainly is not a reason not to implement it.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2016 18:09:45 GMT -6
Eh, I'm not that advanced yet, Hooli. Can you translate? XD
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Hooligan
Squirrel King of Arms; Cunstaval to Maricopa
Posts: 7,325
Talossan Since: 7-12-2005
Motto: PRIMA CAPIAM POCULA
Baron Since: 11-20-2005
Count Since: 9-8-2012
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Post by Hooligan on Oct 6, 2016 18:23:14 GMT -6
Eh, I'm not that advanced yet, Hooli. Can you translate? XD Why, certainly! Hello, In discussions about this idea, the king, the Prime Minister, and I have some thoughts: - We believe that it would be more Talossan if any choice for a "accusative case marker" would be a complete word, instead of a prefix.
- One reason for this is that it would permit the use of the mark before articles and other parts of speech, and we think this is important (as one example below shows).
- The idea seems similar to the "personal a" in Spanish and the use of the word "pe" as an accusative preposition ("prepositional accusative") in Romanian.
- As in those languages (sisters to Talossan), we believe that the use of a preposition would be the correct choice for Talossan.
- I theorise that the Talossan "pa" ("pad" before vowels) probably is (and always has been, although it was not described properly as such) available for exactly this usage.
- This word ("pa", which is translated into English as "on", exactly as is the Romanian "pe") already is used for indication of the dative of interest, but I believe that all we know about "pa" supports its analog to "pe", including its potential use as a prepositional accusative in Talossan.
Examples of these usages of "pa": - As the dative of interest: L'avendeziun breneva pad eia. ("The dinner burned on her.) [English uses "on" here also.]
- As the accusative case marker: Pa la criança ama el caciun. ("The dog loves the girl; lit., "On the girl loves the dog".) [Maybe "pa+el/la" would elide to "pel/pal"? I think not.]
- As the "personal pa" similar to the "personal a" in Spanish: Çerçéu pa 'n secretar. (I am searching for a [particular] secretary.) (This is distinct from "Çerçéu 'n secretar"; the former would indicate that the secretary is a known person.) [Does "pa+ün(a)/'n" elide to "p'iens(a)"? I think not.]
So...the use of "pa" for this is one idea. There were other ideas discussed also. Cresti will post about those soon....
--Hool
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2016 18:30:33 GMT -6
Thanks for that. I suppose it'll be the CÚG that decides on the ultimate usefulness of any accusative case marker.
For the record, I believe using a preexisting preposition could be relatively confusing, but I've never heard Talossan spoken, so I wouldn't be able to give a substantiated opinion on the matter.
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Hooligan
Squirrel King of Arms; Cunstaval to Maricopa
Posts: 7,325
Talossan Since: 7-12-2005
Motto: PRIMA CAPIAM POCULA
Baron Since: 11-20-2005
Count Since: 9-8-2012
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Post by Hooligan on Oct 6, 2016 18:37:57 GMT -6
You're welcome, Jack.
I think the case for "pa" is pretty strong, and in fact fits precisely with the current use of the word, so I don't see any potential confusion by acknowledging this as a proper use of "pa".
Consider the dative of interest example above -- L'avendeziun breneva pad eia. Given this, and the fact that the almost certain (to me, at least) origin-word from which "pa" was born (Romanian "pe") is not only defined as "on" (which is perhaps indicative of dative of interest use) but is also used as a prepositional accusative, this means that Pad eia breneva l’avendaziun makes perfect sense and (I think) could seriously be argued as an already-valid construction even before acknowledging "pa" as anything but an indicator of the dative of interest.
Hool
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2016 18:40:15 GMT -6
Well, then it's settled! Let the record show that a prepositional accusative pa(d) shall be the accusative marker.
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Hooligan
Squirrel King of Arms; Cunstaval to Maricopa
Posts: 7,325
Talossan Since: 7-12-2005
Motto: PRIMA CAPIAM POCULA
Baron Since: 11-20-2005
Count Since: 9-8-2012
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Post by Hooligan on Oct 6, 2016 18:43:18 GMT -6
Well, then it's settled! Let the record show that a prepositional accusative pa(d) shall be the accusative marker. Well, Cresti points out that I am mixing apples and oranges in my example that attempted to draw an analog between these two uses of "pa". As he said, a prepositional accusative example would actually be pa l'avendaziun breneva el cócüs (literally, and confusingly, "on the dinner burned the cook"). Which does suggest that there is a (quoting Cresti now) "a big potential for confusion between prepositional accusative and dative of interest". Hmm....
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