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Post by Eðo Grischun on Apr 14, 2016 20:34:54 GMT -6
Recently I moved from the city of Glasgow to a small town named Wishaw. I would like some help translating this place name into Talossan, please.
I understand when it comes to tricky translations such as place names or family names that we look at the etymology of the word in question.
The etymology of the place name 'Wishaw' is not certain. Nobody really knows for 100% sure where the name comes from. However, the most likely candidates are as follows.
1. Wishaw = Wee Shaw = Little Wood
or
2. Wishaw = Wis-Shaw = Water-Wood
(Option 2 is the less likely option, but, still valid enough. Some folks argue that this is the correct translation based on something along the lines of 'wood between the waters' (Wishaw sits between the South Calder Water (a burn or large stream) and the River Clyde) or 'wood with water / wood near water / etc)
So, could you language guys provide some help and guidance on this?
Translations for both options are welcome as both options are technically equally valid as nobody knows for sure where the name Wishaw comes from. Most people, including myself, reckon the answer is Little Wood (Wee Shaw = Wishaw).
But, seeing as there is no official answer, I'd like to hear the possible translations applicable to the Wis-Shaw line of thought (or Water Wood, Water near wood, wood near water, wood between the waters).
Then, I guess, we can pick whichever options just sounds coolest!
Many thanks in advance.
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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on Apr 15, 2016 2:24:50 GMT -6
The Scúrzniă Gramátică by Robert Ben Madison says that: It goes on to specify that, in the “UNITED KINGDOM[, a]ll names are to be taken from English; however, use of Cornish, Manx, Welsh and Scots (or Scots Gaelic) names for places in which those areas are spoken, is encouraged.”
So, the proper way to refer to Wishaw would be “Camas Neachdain”. Does that satisfy you?
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Sir C. M. Siervicül
Posts: 9,636
Talossan Since: 8-13-2005
Knight Since: 7-28-2007
Motto: Nonnisi Deo serviendum
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Post by Sir C. M. Siervicül on Apr 15, 2016 7:30:38 GMT -6
So, the proper way to refer to Wishaw would be “Camas Neachdain”. Does that satisfy you? That seems right to me--and Sir Tomás would definitely approve. The next step in the evolution of a place name would be transliteration of the native form, as with Glasc'hù (Glasgow). I don't know enough about Scottish Gaelic orthography/phonology to say for sure how to transliterate Camas Neachdain. Camas Gnhác'hdain? |
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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on Apr 15, 2016 13:03:48 GMT -6
I would say:
Cámës Gnhác’hkîgnh. -chd is generally pronounced as though it were -chg.
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Post by Eðo Grischun on Apr 15, 2016 14:34:30 GMT -6
I know zero Gaelic. However, apparently, there isn't an official Gaelic translation available for the place name. According to what I'm reading the name is of Germanic origin??? and also derives from Old English words of Scaga (Wood), Widig (willow) and Wiht (bend) ?? Does that help?
Might also help that in official Scots Language (Scots not Gaelic); Wishaw = Wishay (pronounced wish-eh) ?? I imagine it's the same word both ways with the same meaning, just pronounced in a Scots varient.
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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on Apr 15, 2016 15:01:18 GMT -6
It seems that the Irish know of Camas Neachdain (according to Wikipedia), but the Scottish do not (gd.wikipedia.org refers to the city as Wishaw).
It should be noted, though, that Irish does not have the letter combination -chd-, this is usually rendered as [i?-cht[/i] in Irish (compare: seachd <> seacht). So therefore, “Camas Neachdain” still seems to be the Scottish-Gaelic name of Wishaw, albeit somewhat unpopular.
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Post by Eðo Grischun on Apr 15, 2016 15:16:02 GMT -6
It seems that the Irish know of Camas Neachdain (according to Wikipedia), but the Scottish do not (gd.wikipedia.org refers to the city as Wishaw). It should be noted, though, that Irish does not have the letter combination -chd-, this is usually rendered as ?-cht in Irish (compare: seachd <> seacht). So therefore, “Camas Neachdain” still seems to be the Scottish-Gaelic name of Wishaw, albeit somewhat unpopular. As far as I'm aware Irish Gaelic and Scottish Gaelic are two entirely different beasts. Does that make a difference or explain it further? The only reason I'm on this, by the way, is that I have 'Glasc'hù, Escot' displayed on the side thing label for location, and I want to change it to 'wishaw', Escot. |
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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on Apr 15, 2016 15:21:23 GMT -6
It seems that the Irish know of Camas Neachdain (according to Wikipedia), but the Scottish do not (gd.wikipedia.org refers to the city as Wishaw). It should be noted, though, that Irish does not have the letter combination -chd-, this is usually rendered as ?-cht in Irish (compare: seachd <> seacht). So therefore, “Camas Neachdain” still seems to be the Scottish-Gaelic name of Wishaw, albeit somewhat unpopular. As far as I'm aware Irish Gaelic and Scottish Gaelic are two entirely different beasts. Does that make a difference or explain it further? The only reason I'm on this, by the way, is that I have 'Glasc'hù, Escot' displayed on the side thing label for location, and I want to change it to 'wishaw', Escot. Not at all. Irish and Scottish Gaelic are mutually intelligible to an extent. I just noted that the Irish Gaelic version of Wikipedia had the Scottish Gaelic name of Wishaw, while the Scottish Gaelic Wikipedia only mentions the English name. No matter why, the discussion amongst linguists has begun. There is no stopping it. |
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Post by Eðo Grischun on Apr 15, 2016 15:34:50 GMT -6
Haha, lol. I'm glad to have provided you with something to chew on.  |
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Sir C. M. Siervicül
Posts: 9,636
Talossan Since: 8-13-2005
Knight Since: 7-28-2007
Motto: Nonnisi Deo serviendum
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Post by Sir C. M. Siervicül on Apr 15, 2016 15:38:44 GMT -6
Try to stay on topic. We're talking about Talossan, not the Black Speech.  |
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Sir C. M. Siervicül
Posts: 9,636
Talossan Since: 8-13-2005
Knight Since: 7-28-2007
Motto: Nonnisi Deo serviendum
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Post by Sir C. M. Siervicül on Apr 16, 2016 7:20:06 GMT -6
I would say: Cámës Gnhác’hkîgnh. -chd is generally pronounced as though it were -chg. More seriously, why would you use î there? Even from a traditionalist perspective, that's /ɨ/, and I've never seen any indication that Scottish Gaelic has /ɨ/. Also, k is mostly used in Talossan in borrowed words where the original language has k. Since Gaelic never uses k, I would avoid it in the Talossan version too. So, assuming you're correct that the Gaelic word would have /ɲ/ at both ends (the Wikipedia article on Scottish Gaelic orthography is very unclear on the value of word-final slender n), I'd probably go with Gnhác'hchegnh. And using traditionalist orthography, for Camas I'd be tempted to go with Camâs rather than Cámës--it matches the letters of the original better. |
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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on Apr 19, 2016 4:12:49 GMT -6
I would say: Cámës Gnhác’hkîgnh. -chd is generally pronounced as though it were -chg. More seriously, why would you use î there? Even from a traditionalist perspective, that's /ɨ/, and I've never seen any indication that Scottish Gaelic has /ɨ/. Also, k is mostly used in Talossan in borrowed words where the original language has k. Since Gaelic never uses k, I would avoid it in the Talossan version too. So, assuming you're correct that the Gaelic word would have /ɲ/ at both ends (the Wikipedia article on Scottish Gaelic orthography is very unclear on the value of word-final slender n), I'd probably go with Gnhác'hchegnh. And using traditionalist orthography, for Camas I'd be tempted to go with Camâs rather than Cámës--it matches the letters of the original better. While you are right, and Scottish Gaelic does not have an /ɨ/, the second vowel in Neachdain is a reduced <a> preceded by a broad (i.e. pharyngealised) consonant. I would transcribe Neachdain as /ˈnʲaχk ɣənʲ/. In pronunciation, then, the sequence of / ɣə()ʲ/ yields approximately the same vowel as /ɨ/. About the ‘k’, I was just confused because of the plethora of c and h. I would of course write Cámës Gnhác’hcîgnh. As for ë or ă, I see the latter of both only as a variant to an unstressed -a in feminine words. The letter <ă>, for me, has no place amid words, unless it is followed by a plural-marker <s>. In this case, however, Cámës is a singular word. Indeed, I have not seen any evidence to support that <ă> was used for anything else (like a Schwa) but for functioning like an Arabic Ta Marbuta <ة>. |
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Sir C. M. Siervicül
Posts: 9,636
Talossan Since: 8-13-2005
Knight Since: 7-28-2007
Motto: Nonnisi Deo serviendum
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Post by Sir C. M. Siervicül on Apr 19, 2016 7:27:57 GMT -6
As for ë or ă, I see the latter of both only as a variant to an unstressed -a in feminine words. The letter <ă>, for me, has no place amid words, unless it is followed by a plural-marker <s>. In this case, however, Cámës is a singular word. Indeed, I have not seen any evidence to support that <ă> was used for anything else (like a Schwa) but for functioning like an Arabic Ta Marbuta <ة>. That's generally true, but in the adverbs acertăs and stiarsăs I don't think the ă is feminine in origin or the s is a plural marker. |
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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on Apr 19, 2016 8:36:59 GMT -6
On that topic, let’s briefly go off-topic:
I still request full membership in the CÚG, and I will not sign up on Yahoo for it.
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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on Apr 19, 2016 8:42:10 GMT -6
As for ë or ă, I see the latter of both only as a variant to an unstressed -a in feminine words. The letter <ă>, for me, has no place amid words, unless it is followed by a plural-marker <s>. In this case, however, Cámës is a singular word. Indeed, I have not seen any evidence to support that <ă> was used for anything else (like a Schwa) but for functioning like an Arabic Ta Marbuta <ة>. That's generally true, but in the adverbs acertăs and stiarsăs I don't think the ă is feminine in origin or the s is a plural marker. Right; I would chalk that up to irregularity inherent in languages (and, verily, Talossan). Additionally, I would actually write the former as “acertas” (akin to certan, certanmînt, etc.), and the latter as “stiarsës” — or, if we do accept that unstressed <a> and <e> may be reduced to a schwa, as “stiarsas”. I could not find any reference to etymology of the word stiarsăs in the dictionary I have. Can you clarify? |
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