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Post by Breneir Itravilatx on Jan 30, 2016 22:14:55 GMT -6
Gonna chime in as a voter here again. I'm not just interested in the ideas of a party, but also their ability to keep the wheels turning and the lights on. So I am interested to know if you have a potential team. This. I have to say, for this election cycle, at least, I'm not all that interested in the minute specifics of each party manifesto as much as I am interested in the "who is who" of each potential government. I have not been following the big debate thread. Actually, not been following it at all. TL;DR springs to mind. Which is actually hilarious in its own right, because in past debates I have found myself moaning at how long it takes for a sensibly timed reply to be posted in such threads. However, this current debate seems to going at Flying Scotsman speed and I just can't bring myself to drudge through the swathes of party political broadcast. I feel like I already have a grasp of "who is who" and what each of these "whos" stand for. The minute specifics don't seem to interest me much. So, like you say here, I'm not just interested in the ideas of party, but, also (actually, for me, it is 'rather' instead of 'also') their ability to keep the wheels turning and the lights on. As a side thought; is this an indication that we are entering into an era of elections fought over 'personality' rather than 'ideals'? Or, that, in general, we have stopped caring so much about the simpler and smaller aspects of governance because we are losing confidence in our leaders and potential leaders to enact said governance? Just some random late night thoughts. Anyway, original point stands. In this election, at least, I care more for 'who' we elect than 'what' we elect. This is stunningly incoherent... Also, does allowing a ministry to go fallow for months count as "keeping the wheels turning" and "the lights on"?
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Post by E.S. Bornatfiglheu on Jan 30, 2016 22:20:34 GMT -6
This. I have to say, for this election cycle, at least, I'm not all that interested in the minute specifics of each party manifesto as much as I am interested in the "who is who" of each potential government. I have not been following the big debate thread. Actually, not been following it at all. TL;DR springs to mind. Which is actually hilarious in its own right, because in past debates I have found myself moaning at how long it takes for a sensibly timed reply to be posted in such threads. However, this current debate seems to going at Flying Scotsman speed and I just can't bring myself to drudge through the swathes of party political broadcast. I feel like I already have a grasp of "who is who" and what each of these "whos" stand for. The minute specifics don't seem to interest me much. So, like you say here, I'm not just interested in the ideas of party, but, also (actually, for me, it is 'rather' instead of 'also') their ability to keep the wheels turning and the lights on. As a side thought; is this an indication that we are entering into an era of elections fought over 'personality' rather than 'ideals'? Or, that, in general, we have stopped caring so much about the simpler and smaller aspects of governance because we are losing confidence in our leaders and potential leaders to enact said governance? Just some random late night thoughts. Anyway, original point stands. In this election, at least, I care more for 'who' we elect than 'what' we elect. This is stunningly incoherent... Also, does allowing a ministry to go fallow for months count as "keeping the wheels turning" and "the lights on"? But you're still not answering the question. Instead of taking a jab at Eðo (who is making sense so far as I can see), why not address the concerns that are being floated here? Does the TNC actually have a team (or the ability to assemble one) should they be tasked with leading a new government?
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Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă
Puisne (Associate) Justice of the Uppermost Court
Fraichetz dels punts, es non dels mürs
Posts: 4,063
Talossan Since: 9-23-2012
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Post by Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă on Jan 30, 2016 22:21:53 GMT -6
This is the era of people being mysterious.
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Post by Breneir Itravilatx on Jan 30, 2016 22:24:08 GMT -6
This is the era of people being mysterious. Please describe the deep mystery which perplexes you. Here's mine, seriously, do the FreeDem failures in the last Government count when voters determine who can "keep the lights on" and who can keep the wheels-a-turnin'?
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Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă
Puisne (Associate) Justice of the Uppermost Court
Fraichetz dels punts, es non dels mürs
Posts: 4,063
Talossan Since: 9-23-2012
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Post by Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă on Jan 30, 2016 22:26:58 GMT -6
The deep mystery is your complete lack of being upfront with anyone. The mystery is that no single person beside you has ever mentioned the TNC beside yourself.
As to the current government, nice deflection from the questions you refuse to answer.
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Post by Breneir Itravilatx on Jan 30, 2016 22:32:49 GMT -6
The deep mystery is your complete lack of being upfront with anyone. The mystery is that no single person beside you has ever mentioned the TNC beside yourself. As to the current government, nice deflection from the questions you refuse to answer. No, good Dr., you deflected. I answered earlier that there are two former members of other parties and two other members and two supporters who are not members but you have not answered my question. Perhaps my answer didn't suite the narrative you are seeking to create. Enlighten me on how you the FreeDem deputy leader and Cort Justice and your team will help prevent the same mistakes being made that your party had a hand in perpetuating just a few weeks ago?
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Post by E.S. Bornatfiglheu on Jan 30, 2016 22:38:57 GMT -6
I thought that was what their "cabinet o' talents" platform was for.
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Post by Breneir Itravilatx on Jan 30, 2016 22:42:06 GMT -6
I thought that was what their "cabinet o' talents" platform was for. Gosh, and I thought these big bundles of words were just dog and pony shows. At least that is what Etho and Miestra would have you believe. It is the "team" that matters. We need globs of people ready to roll up their sleeves and get the wheels-a-turnin;. The FreeDems are Talossa's best practitioners of rhetorical judo I have ever seen.
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Post by E.S. Bornatfiglheu on Jan 30, 2016 22:52:43 GMT -6
I thought that was what their "cabinet o' talents" platform was for. Gosh, and I thought these big bundles of words were just dog and pony shows. At least that is what Etho and Miestra would have you believe. It is the "team" that matters. We need globs of people ready to roll up their sleeves and get the wheels-a-turnin;. The FreeDems are Talossa's best practitioners of rhetorical judo I have ever seen. No need to get angry at me. I'm just a voter trying to parse out what is what and make an informed decision come election day. When you wrote me to ask for my opinion and support, I gave the first and am thinking through the latter. But all these beautiful ideas are indeed "dog and pony shows" if you cannot execute them. The FreeDems have apologized and are aiming to do better, I think. But anyhow, you don't want to distract from the TNC campaign, then lets not talk about the FreeDems or the RUMP. Lets talk about the TNC, please. What would a TNC led government look like? I don't need names, but an outline. Are you planning on reaching out to other parties? Are you thinking a political coalition? Or a system closer to what has been floated by other parties, with a cabinet of talents not bound by politics beyond the VoC? Ideas are fine, great even. But if you can't carry them off, they aren't worth much. Alec Baldwin makes the point in Glengarry Glen Ross: Does the TNC have what it takes to Close?
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Jan 30, 2016 23:07:37 GMT -6
If "third prize" in this election would mean you got kicked out of the country, we might see some VERY vigorous campaigning between the ModRads and Brenéir and his Canadian boyfriends the TNC.
But more seriously. Brenéir, I'm going to stop teasing and ask you to explain yourself:
You were in the Cabinet, Brenéir. You know precisely was going on. Therefore, you know that - apart from your good self - it was the FreeDems who kept the Government running. For you to say otherwise is sheer political balderdash, sir, unless you can back it up with evidence.
And let's remind everyone that you turned down a role in the Shadow Cabinet of Talents. Your responses in this thread have been angry, defensive, seeking to attack the FreeDems in particular, not - say - the ModRads. Why? The source of this passionate anger towards the FreeDems is another mystery.
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Post by Breneir Itravilatx on Jan 30, 2016 23:11:47 GMT -6
Gosh, and I thought these big bundles of words were just dog and pony shows. At least that is what Etho and Miestra would have you believe. It is the "team" that matters. We need globs of people ready to roll up their sleeves and get the wheels-a-turnin;. The FreeDems are Talossa's best practitioners of rhetorical judo I have ever seen. No need to get angry at me. I'm just a voter trying to parse out what is what and make an informed decision come election day. When you wrote me to ask for my opinion and support, I gave the first and am thinking through the latter. But all these beautiful ideas are indeed "dog and pony shows" if you cannot execute them. The FreeDems have apologized and are aiming to do better, I think. But anyhow, you don't want to distract from the TNC campaign, then lets not talk about the FreeDems or the RUMP. Lets talk about the TNC, please. What would a TNC led government look like? I don't need names, but an outline. Are you planning on reaching out to other parties? Are you thinking a political coalition? Or a system closer to what has been floated by other parties, with a cabinet of talents not bound by politics beyond the VoC? Ideas are fine, great even. But if you can't carry them off, they aren't worth much. Alec Baldwin makes the point in Glengarry Glen Ross: Does the TNC have what it takes to Close? I realize that you intend to communicate an air being reasonable, Eiric but asking me the same question repeatedly AFTER I answered is liable to make anyone quite angry and is most certainly NOT reasonable. The insinuations that are being made against me and the members of my party are entirely unacceptable. NOW, you want to talk about the TNC after questions were raised about the FreeDem record in Government. I ANSWERED your question on coalitions. I said earlier that the TNC will seek a coalition government to achieve the objectives listed in our platform. I said that I founded the TNC with the expectation of entering into coalition since we are small. Just like I have now stated TWICE the numbers of both members and supporters we have. We will likely seek a coalition in some form with multiple parties depending on how the vote turns out. I ANSWERED your question on outline in the platform with specific ideas for each ministry. All that is remaining to know are the NAMES and that is something to be determined in negotiations AFTER voting has concluded. Our ability to "carry our ideas off" is not dependent on having 30 members. It is dependent on our ability to either lead or work successfully within a COALITION. I say again we are not running an anti-coalition campaign like the FreeDems so we are not restrain to begging members of other parties to join our cabinet now like Miestra did with me twice.
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Post by E.S. Bornatfiglheu on Jan 30, 2016 23:14:30 GMT -6
If "third prize" in this election would mean you got kicked out of the country, we might see some VERY vigorous campaigning between the ModRads and Brenéir and his Canadian boyfriends the TNC. Well, I was thinking more the third prize being not in government as the "you're fired." Not exile.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Jan 30, 2016 23:18:24 GMT -6
Actually, re-reading Brenéir's statements, I think I need to make an apology. He is making it clear, under a lot of aggressive posturing, what his issue is. The whole goal of the TNC is to be part of a coalition Government. The FreeDems oppose coalition, so it makes sense that he opposes us.
What I can't understand about why Brenéir as Foreign Minister (alongside Cresti and Eddie G.) in a Free-Dem led cabinet wouldn't give him everything he wanted. Unless these are extra demands put forward by the "Canadian boyfriends", i.e. the silent and possibly fictitious other TNC members?
As to this:
Begging, huh. What a sneering, nasty thing to say. What a "tough-guy" pose, the implication that there's something shameful about asking someone for their help.
Again we see that when people complain about aggression and rudeness in Talossan politics, they only mean me and posibly Tim. Everyone else can be as rude as miéidâ.
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Post by Breneir Itravilatx on Jan 30, 2016 23:20:36 GMT -6
Actually, re-reading Brenéir's statements, I think I need to make an apology. He is making it clear, under a lot of aggressive posturing, what his issue is. The whole goal of the TNC is to be part of a coalition Government. The FreeDems oppose coalition, so it makes sense that he opposes us. What I can't understand about why Brenéir as Foreign Minister (alongside Cresti and Eddie G.) in a Free-Dem led cabinet wouldn't give him everything he wanted. Unless these are extra demands put forward by the "Canadian boyfriends", i.e. the silent and possibly fictitious other TNC members? Aggressive posturing? Pot meet kettle, huh
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Post by E.S. Bornatfiglheu on Jan 30, 2016 23:23:39 GMT -6
I realize that you intend to communicate an air being reasonable, Eiric but asking me the same question repeatedly AFTER I answered is liable to make anyone quite angry and is most certainly NOT reasonable. The insinuations that are being made against me and the members of my party are entirely unacceptable. NOW, you want to talk about the TNC after questions were raised about the FreeDem record in Government. I ANSWERED your question on coalitions. I said earlier that the TNC will seek a coalition government to achieve the objectives listed in our platform. I said that I founded the TNC with the expectation of entering into coalition since we are small. Just like I have now stated TWICE the numbers of both members and supporters we have. We will likely seek a coalition in some form with multiple parties depending on how the vote turns out. I ANSWERED your question on outline in the platform with specific ideas for each ministry. All that is remaining to know are the NAMES and that is something to be determined in negotiations AFTER voting has concluded. Our ability to "carry our ideas off" is not dependent on having 30 members. It is dependent on our ability to either lead or work successfully within a COALITION. I say again we are not running an anti-coalition campaign like the FreeDems so we are not restrain to begging members of other parties to join our cabinet now like Miestra did with me twice.And there it is. The answer. You're seeking to build a coalition. Thank you. If I missed it in the posts, you have my apologies. I changed the subject from the FreeDems because I know their record. The coalition government fell apart like a soup sandwich. Not much more to know, and just about everyone (from just about every party) has been pretty up front about the failings on their part. Which then leads me to ask: "Given the difficulties faced by the last coalition government, at least some of which seem to be related to the very nature of a coalition, why does the TNC choose to follow such a path?"
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