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Post by Breneir Itravilatx on Dec 31, 2015 16:52:44 GMT -6
I ask these questions with honest curiosity. Could someone please elaborate on the privacy concerns which apparently caused the introduction of the 'opt-in' protocol? How do political parties contact Talossan citizens who do not use Witt regularly? How many complaints has the Chancery received concerning receipt of spam from Talossan political parties or government agencies? In short, many countries, including Canada, have strict laws regarding who you can email, and they ban all opt-out email lists. In Canada, the law is REALLY, REALLY, REALLY strict and can lead to major fines. In the past, it wasn't a concern, but now, just sharing email addresses is criminal in many cases, including in Canada: If I share the emails of my customers to another party, I can be fined and possibly jailed (thought that would need them to prove conspiracy to commit fraud). People are FEED UP with spam and pseudo-spam. Really feed-up. MP, you are referencing a Canadian or macrostate problem to solve what is not an issue in Talossa. You are also exaggerating the danger without actually answering my questions.
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Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă
Puisne (Associate) Justice of the Uppermost Court
Fraichetz dels punts, es non dels mürs
Posts: 4,063
Talossan Since: 9-23-2012
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Post by Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă on Dec 31, 2015 17:04:44 GMT -6
I don't see this as a problem, really. Spammers have way better methods of getting email addresses than by becoming a citizen of a nation, paying a registration fee, etc., for less than 200 email addresses. I would wager a lot than a spammer could pay $20 for THOUSANDS of email addresses.
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Post by Breneir Itravilatx on Dec 31, 2015 17:07:03 GMT -6
The Talossan National Congress has been working on its platform for the upcoming election. I hope Sir Cresti won't mind but his moving argument from the debate concerning a privacy bill nicely explains why this has been added to the TNC's election platform. Any more thoughts on this 'ere bill? I continue to oppose the bill, for the reasons expressed in my original post: changing to an opt-in regime promotes voter ignorance and the further atomisation of our society. Privacy is a relative term. Our degree of concern about privacy issues is relative to the kind of information and the degree of disclosure. When it comes to basic contact information, it may be normal to worry about privacy from random strangers, but at the same time it's quite normal to accept that this kind of information is freely shared among family and friends. It would be an odd family indeed where someone would exclaim: "Mom, how dare you give my e-mail address to Grandma? You violated my right to privacy!" From my perspective, this bill is part of a disturbing trend of encouraging Talossans to view other Talossans not as fellow members of a close-knit community of friends, as was historically the case, but as random strangers who are probably looking to hurt or take advantage of you. If that's the kind of society we're becoming, maybe we're getting too big, or letting people in too easily.
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Post by Marti-Pair Furxheir S.H. on Dec 31, 2015 17:12:32 GMT -6
In short, many countries, including Canada, have strict laws regarding who you can email, and they ban all opt-out email lists. In Canada, the law is REALLY, REALLY, REALLY strict and can lead to major fines. In the past, it wasn't a concern, but now, just sharing email addresses is criminal in many cases, including in Canada: If I share the emails of my customers to another party, I can be fined and possibly jailed (thought that would need them to prove conspiracy to commit fraud). People are FEED UP with spam and pseudo-spam. Really feed-up. MP, you are referencing a Canadian or macrostate problem to solve what is not an issue in Talossa. You are also exaggerating the danger without actually answering my questions. Breneir, I have a few very important questions: In which country is the database is hosted? Answer: Canada In which country am I located? Answer: Canada Which country's laws will apply if one of our citizens decide to press charges against me for having distributed his email address? Answer: Canadian law Which parts of our constitution will Canadian law consider then deciding how to apply Canadian law? Answer: None of it. Am I really concerned about being personally sued? Only a bit, but here is the kicker, my company hosts the website and since the Kingdom isn't paying my company for the hosting, it legally means that my company isn't protected by the client neutrality (which states that my company isn't responsible for the action of his clients). So my company could be fined, or worse than a fine, I could lose my contact with my IP providers if the citizen decides to be really, really nasty, and that's a big can of worms. 2 elections ago, the new Canadian Anti-spam laws weren't in place and I didn't care. Today, I am scared shitless about sending newsletters to my customers. Invoices are immune, but I have sent ZERO newsletters since then. Here are a few fines: www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/industry-news/marketing/porter-airlines-fined-150000-under-anti-spam-legislation-crtc-says/article25177460/nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2015/03/09/canadas-anti-spam-law-gets-first-success-with-1-1m-fine/globalnews.ca/news/1902570/plentyoffish-hit-with-48k-fine-relating-to-canadas-anti-spam-law/And that's not even counting the very very harsh Québec privacy laws! Do you think Québec would recognize that the email address was legally given? I can justify giving it to the King, who is the present of our club. I can justify giving them to our provincial SoS who are administrators. But there is no way in hell I can justify giving them to campaigners...
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Post by Breneir Itravilatx on Dec 31, 2015 17:15:21 GMT -6
MP, you are referencing a Canadian or macrostate problem to solve what is not an issue in Talossa. You are also exaggerating the danger without actually answering my questions. Breneir, I have a few very important questions: In which country is the database is hosted? Answer: Canada In which country am I located? Answer: Canada Which country's laws will apply if one of our citizens decide to press charges against me for having distributed his email address? Answer: Canadian law Which parts of our constitution will Canadian law consider then deciding how to apply Canadian law? Answer: None of it. Am I really concerned about being personally sued? Only a bit, but here is the kicker, my company hosts the website and since the Kingdom isn't paying my company for the hosting, it legally means that my company isn't protected by the client neutrality (which states that my company isn't responsible for the action of his clients). So my company could be fined, or worse than a fine, I could lose my contact with my IP providers if the citizen decides to be really, really nasty, and that's a big can of worms. 2 elections ago, the new Canadian Anti-spam laws weren't in place and I didn't care. Today, I am scared shitless about sending newsletters to my customers. Invoices are immune, but I have sent ZERO newsletters since then. Here are a few fines: www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/industry-news/marketing/porter-airlines-fined-150000-under-anti-spam-legislation-crtc-says/article25177460/nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2015/03/09/canadas-anti-spam-law-gets-first-success-with-1-1m-fine/globalnews.ca/news/1902570/plentyoffish-hit-with-48k-fine-relating-to-canadas-anti-spam-law/And that's not even counting the very very harsh Québec privacy laws! Do you think Québec would recognize that the email address was legally given? I can justify giving it to the King, who is the present of our club. I can justify giving them to our provincial SoS who are administrators. But there is no way in hell I can justify giving them to campaigners... Mon ami, you make the case for Chancery reform all by yourself. As Obama would say "Please continue..."
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Post by Marti-Pair Furxheir S.H. on Dec 31, 2015 17:26:51 GMT -6
Chancery reform???
The problem is the chancery???
I am proposing to give an alias to every citizen so that party leader will be able to contact citizens without compromising their email address
I am proposing to give a form to let party leader contact all citizens easily.
I am finding solutions to safeguard the privacy of our citizens while allowing the spirit of the law (which is to allow party leaders to campaign), and I am the one with a problem???
If I was just saying NO, or refusing to perform my duties, that would be one thing.
But I am proposing to work a lot of hours to build a system to help. I am proposing solutions.
Forget it, visibly we don't see eye to eye and yet, earlier today, you asked me to become a deputy SoS. I don't get you.
It's not the first time I have talked about privacy, and I am NOT the only one concerned with privacy.
But I am proposing solutions.
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Post by Breneir Itravilatx on Dec 31, 2015 17:42:52 GMT -6
You are proposing a work-around to a system which is not broken. There is no good solution for a nonexistent problem.
But there is a problem that we have been tip-toeing around for months now. The problem is the the deep integration of the Chancery's capabilities in ONLY one person thus Chancery reform which democratizes those capabilities and the access and know-how with respect to its infrastructure.
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Post by Marti-Pair Furxheir S.H. on Jan 1, 2016 5:11:04 GMT -6
You are proposing a work-around to a system which is not broken. There is no good solution for a nonexistent problem. And you keep saying it is an non-existant problem??? After my explanation as to why it is a problem? Any by the way, I am not the only one who feels that way as I am not the person who wrote the privacy bill. I am just in charge of implementing it and I am trying to find a better way. It did bug me in the last election, but this time, I happen to be on vacation the week before the election preparation so I have time to handle it. But the Chancery was already reformed!!! By me and my Deputy! Bill 46RZ5: www.talossa.ca/files/bills.php?cosa=46&bill=5My deputy handles the Census part, I don't do anything related to that. I manage the Elections and the Clarks, which never occur at the same time. They are also the most complicated parts, thought the Database helps a LOT with the automation and I am working every few months to make it easier to my eventual replacement in a few years. That leaves the Hopper (which I currently manage but would love to have help with), and the Senate relations, which I currently handle, but I would like someone to be a liaison to them. Back then, no one seemed particularly interested to help. You have expressed a desire to be in the Chancery. The hopper management would be available as a duty, there isn't much to do, and given that we do not see eye to eye on privacy of the voters, this is a role which doesn't give you any special access to the voters list, so I would be fully comfortable giving you the role of Hopper Clerk. You seem to think that I keep a tight control over the Chancery and don't let ANYONE in. The reality is that I have offered a few times to get help, but no a lot of people are interested in such a boring thankless job. They prefer to write bills, manage a ministry, which is all fine! I am not judging. But in the mean time, that leaves Txec and I alone to manage the Chancery. I had really hoped you could be another deputy, but this crusade on not seeing the problem that perhaps, sharing the email address of all citizens to any party leader isn't the best solution to campaigning is making me doubt that. But you can still be hopper manager if you want! I will happily train you to do it, and collaborate with you, as you seem to be a really nice guy. We just have a difference of opinion on this particular subject. I have made my case, you rejected it, I do not see any way to continue to discussion in a productive way, so I am dropping this subject. Right now, I am working on a privacy manager for the database. Once ready, I will update all of you.
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Post by Marti-Pair Furxheir S.H. on Jan 1, 2016 5:14:36 GMT -6
And just to make it clear: It's not that I want to punish you, it's that to name a full deputy, I need to know that we share the same values, that I can trust that deputy when I am not around to make the same decisions that I would make.
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Post by Marti-Pair Furxheir S.H. on Jan 1, 2016 6:09:42 GMT -6
There is now a new Privacy page on the Database. It is located here: www.talossa.ca/files/privacy.phpYou have 2 choices to access it: 1 ) Login to the database using the Login button at the top right, and then visiting the page to set your option or 2 ) Select your name in the drop down (you can search for it by typing the first few letters) If you leave the Code blank, you will be emailed your code, with a link to directly access your privacy settings, or you can manually select your username and copy-paste your code. Once logged in, you have 4 options: - I do not want any political emails - I only want politcal emails sent to all citizens via the Chancery - Have them email me via [citnumber]@talossa.ca - Reveal my actual email address ([actual email listed]) We then store that in the database. You can update as often as you want. Please note that the [citnumber]@talossa.ca emails are not working yet, but that is coming soon. The default is "I do not want any political emails"
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Jan 1, 2016 10:58:52 GMT -6
Does that mean that everyone's previous choice has been overridden and they have to go to the website and login and choose the option again?
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Post by Marti-Pair Furxheir S.H. on Jan 1, 2016 11:48:00 GMT -6
Does that mean that everyone's previous choice has been overridden and they have to go to the website and login and choose the option again? Which previous choice? I don't believe this was ever asked. If I am wrong, I will import the old answers, but I do not believe I ever asked that question before.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Jan 1, 2016 13:03:40 GMT -6
The Free Democrats brought in the Database Nationalisation Act, which made it clear that the Database, its machinery and all its information will be transferred to public ownership. The next step will be to bring in effective Deputies and succession planning - making it clear that MPF can be replaced if, God forbid, he should fall under a bus or just annoy me , and the Database will continue to function.
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Post by Marti-Pair Furxheir S.H. on Jan 1, 2016 13:47:37 GMT -6
The Free Democrats brought in the Database Nationalisation Act, which made it clear that the Database, its machinery and all its information will be transferred to public ownership. The next step will be to bring in effective Deputies and succession planning - making it clear that MPF can be replaced if, God forbid, he should fall under a bus or just annoy me :D , and the Database will continue to function. Exactly! and in the mean time, I refuse to work witht he database at the raw level, so that when I need to do something, it forces me to either use a tool my replacement will be able to use, or to make one. For example, next step: Senate Endorsements, possibly Sunday (tomorrow is the sending of the privacy email)
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Post by Breneir Itravilatx on Jan 1, 2016 16:17:50 GMT -6
There is now a new Privacy page on the Database. It is located here: www.talossa.ca/files/privacy.phpYou have 2 choices to access it: 1 ) Login to the database using the Login button at the top right, and then visiting the page to set your option or 2 ) Select your name in the drop down (you can search for it by typing the first few letters) If you leave the Code blank, you will be emailed your code, with a link to directly access your privacy settings, or you can manually select your username and copy-paste your code. Once logged in, you have 4 options: - I do not want any political emails - I only want politcal emails sent to all citizens via the Chancery - Have them email me via [citnumber]@talossa.ca - Reveal my actual email address ([actual email listed]) We then store that in the database. You can update as often as you want. Please note that the [citnumber]@talossa.ca emails are not working yet, but that is coming soon. The default is "I do not want any political emails" This is good but I have one question. Will we need to send an email to citizens informing them of the option? Otherwise we would still have a default 'no political communication.' Also, I need to offer you an apology, Marti-Pair Furxheir S.H. , as I overlooked the database bill which I as an MRPT MC and the FreeDems sponsored and which was based on an idea you initially submitted. The Chancery reform on the database will hopefully be implemented by the next government. I must also say that you are correct in that we do not see to eye-to-eye on the issue of privacy in Talossa for the reasons described by Cresti. I think what we have is a nice fault line on the peculiarist-derivatist debate.
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