Pertaining to lawful heirs and cadency

[Doug Earnest]

"... obtaining arms for myself and my lawful heirs."

How does this apply to heirs who are not subjects of the King? Does the eldest son inherit the father's arms on the passing of the father even if the son is not Talossan? Or is it the eldest child regardless of gender who inherits the arms? Or what about the mother's arms passing to sons or daughters? (Or other heirs, as appropriate.) Or, does "lawful heirs" mean they must be Talossan to be lawful for heraldry purposes?

If I have a son, the eldest, and two daughters, could I simply throw a label of my own choosing on my arms and that's what he uses, or would it have to be designed and approved through the Talossan College of Arms? I remember the subject of cadency for daughters came up once in a discussion, where Canada's system was mentioned, but I don't recall anything coming of it. Again, could I simply superimpose a heart and an ermine spot on my arms and voila, they got arms, too?

[Capt. Sir Mick Preston]

Mar 31, 2013 14:17:35 GMT -6 Doug Earnest said:

"... obtaining arms for myself and my lawful heirs."

How does this apply to heirs who are not subjects of the King? Does the eldest son inherit the father's arms on the passing of the father even if the son is not Talossan? Or is it the eldest child regardless of gender who inherits the arms? Or what about the mother's arms passing to sons or daughters? (Or other heirs, as appropriate.) Or, does "lawful heirs" mean they must be Talossan to be lawful for heraldry purposes?

If I have a son, the eldest, and two daughters, could I simply throw a label of my own choosing on my arms and that's what he uses, or would it have to be designed and approved through the Talossan College of Arms? I remember the subject of cadency for daughters came up once in a discussion, where Canada's system was mentioned, but I don't recall anything coming of it. Again, could I simply superimpose a heart and an ermine spot on my arms and voila, they got arms, too?

To put it briefly -

Unless your children are also Citizens of Talossa, it wouldn't matter what you did to your Coat of Arms- they wouldn't be recognized by The College. The protocol is that the College merely assists the Citizen with the creation of the CoA, following the International Rules of Heraldry, and Talossan Heraldry Rules .

The CoA is not officially granted until the King issues a proclamation - and again, that only affects Talossan Citizens.

Now, if they were Citizens, then that answer would be longer.

[Sir C. M. Siervicül]

These are good questions. As Sir Mick points out, only citizens may be granted arms, but descent of arms is a different matter. For example, Lord Lyon in Scotland will only grant arms to UK citizens of Scottish descent, but anyone (including a US citizen) who can prove descent from a Scottish armiger can matriculate appropriately-cadenced arms with the Court of Lord Lyon. We have not yet settled on a system of cadency or details of descent for Talossan arms, though.

[Doug Earnest]

Thank you both for your responses.

While some may argue that in the grand scheme of the Universe it doesn't really matter that much, I was still curious.

In practice, our coats of arms probably aren't going to be recognized as "legitimate" by anyone outside the Kingdom of Talossa. However, they were granted by the King, and are therefore good enough for me, regardless of the feelings of anyone outside the kingdom.

So this leaves the issue of the "lawful heirs" clause. What does the College define as a lawful heir? Children of legitimate birth, or children who elect to become Talossan citizens, or children who are acknowledged in the will? If Talossan citizenship is not required to be a lawful heir, then it stands to reason the College of Arms should continue to recognize the arms that were legitimately inherited.

I'm not sure to what extent this "recognition" should extend, but slapping on a label doesn't seem hugely challenging in light of the amount of work that goes into the original requesting and granting of arms for persons real and imagined. It also seems to me that providing the next generation with some sort of continuing association with the Kingdom could be good for the citizenship rolls.

Yeah, I know, that brings up all sorts of other questions. Perhaps a separate page for registering and displaying arms of descendants who are not citizens? A small fee to be paid for said services for non-citizens? (A very small fee to help with expenses of running the site - must avoid appearances of Talossa as a money-making operation, right?)

Anyway, just some random thoughts, thanks for the feedback.

[Iustì Carlüs Canun]

I have always understood "lawful heirs" in this context to refer only to children of the armiger who are themselves Talossan, irrespective of the children's genders.

[Sir C. M. Siervicül]

I never understood being a Talossan to be a requirement myself, as the concept of an heir is not normally restricted by nationality. Under British law, for example, even titles of nobility can be inherited by foreign citizens, though foreign citizens could not sit in the House of Lords unless they naturalized as British citizens.

[Iustì Carlüs Canun]

Well, yeah, but in Talossa's case, why would a non-Talossan heir want to inherit said arms?
If I found out I was heir to some vast estate in England somewhere, I would find a way to get my happy little butt to England, but Talossa has no such draw.

[Danihel Txechescu]

Apr 2, 2013 23:08:17 GMT -6 Iustì Carlüs Canun said:

Well, yeah, but in Talossa's case, why would a non-Talossan heir want to inherit said arms?
If I found out I was heir to some vast estate in England somewhere, I would find a way to get my happy little butt to England, but Talossa has no such draw.

What do you mean? I would like my non Talossan heir (son or daughter, or whoever I design on my will) to inherit my Talossan arms.

[Sir C. M. Siervicül]

Apr 2, 2013 23:08:17 GMT -6 Iustì Carlüs Canun said:

Well, yeah, but in Talossa's case, why would a non-Talossan heir want to inherit said arms?

Cuz they're super cool? Of course, Talossanity itself is super cool, so it follows that they should not be non-Talossan, but (as S:reu Earnest suggests) in some cases receiving arms through a Talossan relative could open the door to Talossanity.

[Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă]

For the purposes of inheritance, can arms pass to an heir who is not a child such as a niece or a nephew?

[Lüc da Schir]

If you don't have sons, I think you can.