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Post by Antaglha Xhenerös Somelieir on Jul 4, 2012 3:52:27 GMT -6
The MRPT seems to be more like middle ground atm. It wants to change but hasnt had much of an.oportunity to also it lacks the same passion the ZRT has. Im not claiming to know much of the MRPT because i dont. This is just my current stance you may want to change. But im not sure if you were to come into Gov that you will do much to change Talissa. However i invite you to inform me more on MRPT but to me they seem like a lost little puppy which shys away from big issues. But again i say im no expert. But i maintain that so far only the ZRT is in a position to chalange rump also it has a party structure. Also the ZRT is determines to change Talossa. And isnt gappy waiting on the sidelines waiting for the day where maybee theyll get a.majority. Theyll go to take the bull by the horns in order to change talissa for what i belive will be the bettee. Whuch ive not seen in your party im afraid
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Glüc da Dhi
Secretary of State
Posts: 6,112
Talossan Since: 5-14-2009
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Post by Glüc da Dhi on Jul 4, 2012 4:06:33 GMT -6
Well, changing Talossa is not just about shouting. Remember that a large majority in the senäts is still conservative. The ZRT seems actually working hard to prevent change by pushing the ones they need for possible majorities for their ideas, especially the CSPP as far away as possible. We are no lost little puppy. We know how the system works and we have a solid plan for what we think Talossa should look like. And yes, changing Talossa for the better is not easy. But if the change you want is to remove the King or to polarize Talossa and changing politics into a big fight without respect for each other, I would not reccomend the MRPT.
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Post by Antaglha Xhenerös Somelieir on Jul 4, 2012 4:13:23 GMT -6
Ive no intest in the MRPT. As i said in an earlier post i strongly support the ZRT. They seem to be the only party who can press for change effecrivly and with conviction. But again this is just baced on my own observations and opinions. Im not asking you to agree with them. And you say the MRPT has a plan to change talossa? What is this plan?
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Post by C. Carlüs Xheraltescù on Jul 4, 2012 4:27:17 GMT -6
I'm sure most, if not all the Talossan political parties have integrity and conviction. That other parties aren't as vocal as the ZRT is irrelevant and has no bearing on their integrity or conviction. Whilst the milder approach of the MRPT might not appeal to you, Evan, they should not be criticised on this point by any means. The grounds on which one should fight a political debate is on policy; mudslinging gains nothing but contempt from the rest of the citizenry.
I have every faith in S:reu da Dhi's MRPT and S:reu Grischun's CSPP. They do not lack in integrity or conviction - they are simply different parties with different objectives. I'd even go as far as to say that Lord Hooligan's RUMP doesn't lack in integrity either; their conviction certainly cannot be disputed. Having said that, to any undecided voters I would encourage you to vote ZRT. And, if that doesn't appeal to you: vote MRPT or CSPP.
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Post by Antaglha Xhenerös Somelieir on Jul 4, 2012 4:31:16 GMT -6
I do apolagise about some offence comments i may have made. I didnt mean to cause any insult to anyone.
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Post by Ián B. Anglatzarâ on Jul 4, 2012 5:13:22 GMT -6
Whilst the milder approach of the MRPT might not appeal to you, Evan, they should not be criticised on this point by any means. It sure appeals to me. If it hadn't been for their extremely strong support for the monarchy as it is, and a couple of other things, I would have voted MRPT. |
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Post by C. Carlüs Xheraltescù on Jul 4, 2012 5:24:31 GMT -6
I do like the mild approach of the MRPT, to be fair to them!  |
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Post by Eðo Grischun on Jul 4, 2012 5:33:49 GMT -6
Doing my replies here in parts for sanity sakes....
Evan:
We still have accountability without these lists. If a party does badly then the party [should] fail to be elected. We have a monthly Vote of confidence that helps hold accountability intact. The government, by law, is supposed to release regular reports on their actions. The FIPA Act (written by myself) ensures that any citizen can request documents and information on almost anything that a government says or does behind closed doors. We still have accountability. The difference is PARTIES ARE HELD ACCOUNTABLE and not INDIVIDUALS.
Now, our system is bi-cameral. If we had a one house parliament then I might see things a little differently. The fact is, we have an upper house and a lower house. In the Senates, individual people are held accountable by name. In the Cosa, partys are held accountable as a group.
The Cosa is supposed to be whimsical. It is supposed to be immature. I don't like the idea of locking up every party so that no one can join in if they are too new. That would make Talossa worse, I feel. We have a lower house that represents the shape of the Nation's citizenry, from oldies to noobs. We have a Senate house that is filled with more experienced folk acting as goalkeepers. And if all else fails, we have The King in his ex-officio position with his Royal Veto. Further, amendments to the OrgLaw need to pass both houses, not get vetoed and then pass a supermajority of all voting citizens.
Just to clear up any confusion. I was a member of the RUMP. I left and am now in the PP. And yes, I did ignore what you said, for I think it's nonsense. I do not buy into the argument that the RUMP has done nothing for Talossa. They are actually a very good party. They have had my vote in the past. I disagree with them on certain fundamental issues, but as a governing party, they are pretty darn good.
No, I don't. I try my best to fight a positive campaign. The ZRT (who you support) is the biggest instigator of slagging matches since the 40th Cosa election.
I authored much of the current CSPP policy. I encourage you to look at the CSPP campaign thread (I will bump it in a few mins for your benefit) where you will see that I do indeed have committed ideas. Yes, I will give you this: I have been flippy floppy over the three parties agreement. I signed up to that document without ANY REAL DISCUSSION taking place. My error. I take the blame. I agree with most of it in principle, but again, each issue has to be dealt with properly before it gets my all out support...and right now, certain arguments (particularly on candidate lists) do not compel me to go all in.
True. I apologise for not taking that into consideration before replying to your post. Truly, I do not mean to attack.
Why? What is so broken about Talossa. I do not think we NEED change. Some changes would be nice but we don't need them. Please, argue back on this. Let me understand why you feel this way.
Again, please help me understand why you want Talossa to change so badly, especially since you already admit that you know very little about the Talossan systems already in place. Perhaps, the RUMP don't want change... is that really a reason to vote them out. I don't buy it. As Gluc suggests, the ZRT are alienating themselves and pushing the CSPP support away. This is because all I hear from their leader is 'oh the rumps been in long enough' or 'ben did it that way so the rump is like ben and must be ousted'. Not buying it despite how cheap it is.
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Post by Eðo Grischun on Jul 4, 2012 5:35:27 GMT -6
I do apolagise about some offence comments i may have made. I didnt mean to cause any insult to anyone. No offence taken. Thick skins all around here. I actually welcome your views. |
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Post by Eðo Grischun on Jul 4, 2012 5:41:58 GMT -6
The orglaw also says it can be amended. Sure it can be amended. What if a party wanted to amend the OrgLaw to say 'Talossa has a 9 day week'? Just because it can be changed does not mean it need to be changed is my point. Improve? More democracy, to me, equals a horror show. I do not like the idea of direct democracy. It sits uneasy with me in Talossan terms. I've said before, my mother does not know who her MP is. Neither do a lot of people around here. We go to the polls and we vote for a party. YES, a candidates name is there but no one cares. No one looks at it, no one knows who it is. If we go down this road in Talossa, I think what will happen is this: We will get more voter apathy. or voters making even more uninformed choices. What we will end up with is a Cosa house with the same names and faces each and every term. "Oh, I've heard of that Grischun guy, he gets my vote." "Oh, Hooligan, I know him...vote vote vote." "Shiva! Yeah I recognise that name!!!" "Lundescu? da Shir? Conductour? Never heard of him, no vote." |
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Glüc da Dhi
Secretary of State
Posts: 6,112
Talossan Since: 5-14-2009
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Post by Glüc da Dhi on Jul 4, 2012 6:01:37 GMT -6
Just for the record, I dont think we should have direct democracy. (Although I dont want to get rid of the referendums either.)
We still vote for parties. Recognition also helps parties, not just candidates. The MRPT does have a binding candidate lists and it has 2 new relatively unknown names on it. Still we're doing ok.
Talossans dont have the chance to vote for the diversity within parties. We dont elect individuals, we dont have primaries. But parties should not try to avoid responsibility for the way it votes by saying the MCs are responsible and then not tell us which MC's its going to appoint, because then voters dont stand a chance.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Jul 4, 2012 6:21:37 GMT -6
A constitonal.monarchy with an elected government house was the first form of a democracy. I think Athens was probably the first democracy, really. From what ive heard the RUMP puts new citizens in the Cosa whove little experince and therefore easily manipulated by the party hence being like a puppet on a string. Hm. I can't think of this happening. I suspect you might be getting some faulty information, here. And i see that you complety ignored the points i made about RUMP being in power so long and yet not actualy changing much in your time in Gov? I think you'll find the RUMP has done a remarkable amount. In fact, the majority of the major pieces of legislation in the past few years have come from the RUMP. For example, the manner in which you were recently immigrated is under the Umpteenth Immigration Act. And the minister who handled it operates under the Cabinet Refinishing Act. There are a lot of examples. Check the important statutes. Seriously. And i never claimed to know much about Talossan polictical structure so far im still learning it. However that does not make my political views and opinions any less valid. I think the point might just be that your rhetoric is a little broad, especially when you're suggesting that the RUMP has not done much. Ive seen no real evidance RUMP wants change and if it does theyre not bothered about how or when thinking itll happen without effort. Well, again, I hate to toot our own horn, but just a few days ago we released TalossaWiki. It's not a partisan effort, to be sure - people in other parties have been central to the project - but it has nonetheless been dominated by RUMPers eager to move into the future. Honestly, we actually do quite a bit. If you need a verifiable account for "evidence," here's my contributions list. |
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Owen Edwards
Puisne Justice
Posts: 1,400
Talossan Since: 12-8-2007
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Post by Owen Edwards on Jul 4, 2012 9:04:33 GMT -6
The RUMP also adopted the long-term PP policy of a respectful reunion - the very reason the ZRT exists in the Kingdom is because of multiple parties, on different sides of the Vuode Wall, working hard over a number of years to sort stuff out. It took time. It took the PP's constant idealism about the matter. It took the ZRT's will on their side of the Wall. It took the RUMP's will on their side. And it took Istefan Pertgonest to come up with the final plan, and he's an independent.
You are flattered, Evan, by an array of respectable choices to vote for in Talossa. You are luckier than citizens in most countries who scarcely have one GOOD party to vote for - and I'm including most democracies in that!
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Hooligan
Squirrel King of Arms; Cunstaval to Maricopa
Posts: 7,325
Talossan Since: 7-12-2005
Motto: PRIMA CAPIAM POCULA
Baron Since: 11-20-2005
Count Since: 9-8-2012
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Post by Hooligan on Jul 4, 2012 9:08:08 GMT -6
Ok Hool if you think its not a bad plan why has your party not done anything to act upon these things? First of all, organisation of the law is a ROYAL function, not a governmental function. It's not a matter for politics or any political party to get into government and do. Keeping the laws organized is the job of an office of the royal household. An apolitical appointment, an officer who does not lose his position when the government changes. Taking something apolitical and politicizing it by making it a government responsibility is not a proper plank for a political party or group of parties. Second of all, though, we have. As I pointed out, the RUMP has done everything that the nation has in place as regards the law. Everything. Everything. And it has been the only set of people working to improve it. The RUMP feels that "the royal officer isn't doing a good job" is not as good as "it's a free country, so let's volunteer to help the royal officer because he has a hard job". The RUMP has, for the past seven years, done that. Plank 2. This one has been argued about ad nauseum. The RUMP was the first party to say "if you vote for us, here is who will get Cosa seats in the First Clark of the 44th Cosa." The RUMP has been clear since day 1 that it reserves (for itself and for all parties) its right to do with any seats that later become vacant whatever it feels best serves the people who voted for that party, even if that means giving them to Bozo the Clown. If I, as RUMP party leader, choose to do that, I think my own party will punish me for not serving its interests, and I don't think it should be a law that "you can't give seats to Bozo the Clown even if you, as leader of your party, somehow are crazy enough to think it's what serves your party best." That is a restriction of freedom, and we're supposed to be a free country. Plank 3. The RUMP passed the Provincial Unshackling Act. The RUMP has ALWAYS been in favour of any province doing whatever it wishes. Provinces should do so. The RUMP is not Benito. The RUMP is not Florencia. The RUMP is not Fiova. Don't ask the RUMP why Maricopa has not advocated for its ability to elect its Senators its own way. If it did advocate for that, the RUMP would be behind it. But until it does, the RUMP isn't gonna insist on changing something if the provinces are happy enough about it to not be up in arms. Plank 4. Others have also said it here, even on this thread. Read the law that plank 4 wants to repeal (written by the RUMP) and say how repealing it gives Talossa what the law gives it, but better. I don't see it. What repealing that law will give us is a mass of immigrants answering the "Micronation Info" question with "yes, me and my dollies are the nation of Prettyville and I want citizenship so we can declare war on Talossa unless you ally with us and our friends the Underwater Nation of Southeast Atlantis!" Do we really want to have to have the Immigration Ministry post all these so we can all waste our time never petitioning for such people (or rolling our eyes trying to argue with them that Talossa is somehow different from their collection of stuffed animals)? Do we really want all these kind of micronations to start thinking Talossa is just another one of them, because we don't say anything about being different, nor do we act like it? That, the RUMP believes, is what a repeal of 37RZ2 would do, and we're not for it. As Alexander pointed out, 37RZ2 already gives us the ability to treat with anything SERIOUS. Maybe there's a very good reason, though, why no one has ever taken advantage of what that law has given us for so many years. There you have it. (And I said all this before, on that very thread where the programme is.) Well, I hope not! The RUMP is a political party! Talking politics is what we do! :-) I don't know whether that's a compliment or an insult (aauugghh! I'm a politician! My mother is sure to be ashamed!). LOL. (Thank you in either case!) And what's to say that if the ZRT takes the majority it will? The answer is the same in both cases. Because the party and its leader say so. I think if you ask anyone who's been here for any amount of time, they will say that the RUMP has, in the main, kept an excellent pace of change for this nation, always measured, always thought-out, never rushed, never knee-jerk. That's what the past indicates, and it's what I hope the future holds, no matter the results of the election. As I said, the RUMP was the first party in this election to say "if you vote RUMP, these particular humans will get seats". The RUMP, however, will protect the right of any party that might choose to simply say, "if you vote for ABC, we promise that whoever gets seats will represent THESE ideals." No; you're confused. The way a PARLIAMENTARY democracy works, and that's what we have here, is people vote for IDEAS, for a set of people ("a party") who believe in those ideas. People vote to get those IDEAS best represented. Talossa is not a nation where the guy with the best smile or the most TV ads can win. Our system is set up to try to avoid that. The ugliest guy in the world might be the best guy to espouse the principles of a particular party. Due to human nature (sad but true), he has a slim chance of getting elected if it's him vs. Matthew McConnaghey. But if the IDEAS of his party are what the voters say they want, by going to the polls and saying, "give us someone -- and we don't care who -- who best advocates THESE ideas", then Mr. Ugly can go to the Cosa. And the voters are best represented. THAT is Talossan democracy. That is nothing -- nothing at ALL -- like communism. No one is a puppet of the RUMP. In fact, the RUMP has been criticized for NOT making its Cosa members puppets! Which is it the opposition wants the RUMP to do -- make them puppets and require them to vote a particular way? Or, as requested here (and as is the case) do NOT make them puppets and allow them to best represent those who voted them into the Cosa as their conscience sees fit? Hool |
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Owen Edwards
Puisne Justice
Posts: 1,400
Talossan Since: 12-8-2007
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Post by Owen Edwards on Jul 4, 2012 9:28:49 GMT -6
Hool, I'm not sure you're accurate in saying the RUMP was the first to publish a list of those who'll get seats. Date and URL of the link, please?
(Insomuch as you didn't respond in kind when the PP published a party list for the 39th Cosa.)
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