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Post by Dréu Gavárþic'h on Feb 16, 2008 5:52:21 GMT -6
WHEREAS in the Kingdom of Talossa there are two official languages, and
WHEREAS those languages are English and El Glhetg Talossan, and
WHEREAS when you have two official languages you should use them both, and
WHEREAS it is seems a bit silly that the King signs bills online, and
WHEREAS it would make us seem much less like an internet club if he actually signed them, now
THEREFORE be it hereby recorded that it is the collective will of the Ziu that:
1. If at all possible, bills presented for review in the Hopper should be translated into Talossan before being Clarked. 2. The King shall sign a physical printed copy of bills at the time they pass into law, and collect these bills for posterity. _____________________________________________________________________
TANDI QE in el Regipäts Talossan sint douas glheþen uficiais, es
TANDI QE acestilor glheþen sint Angleasca es El Glhetg Talossan, es
TANDI QE quand tu tent douas glheþen uficiais tu fost uçarh embù, es
TANDI QE ça sembla seltsam qe el Regeu signa els proxhet sürligna. es
TANDI QE ça noi façadra semblarh multeu míus come 'n c'hlub d'Internet schi o lor signadra actualmint, nun
PER ACEASTA RAZIUN, c'e la Ceadfa da Ziu qe:
1. Schi isch pouçival, proxhets qe presentent per recentza in el "Hopper" foßent glheþinarh avant da "Clarkent" 2. El Regeu signarha 'n copia squetschat es füçical del proxhet àl timp qe valident ainciün legeu, es colectent acestilor proxhets per posterità.
Uréu q'estadra sa: Alexandreu Gavárþic'h
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EM Vürinalt
Citizen since 12-20-2007
Parletz, am?c, en entrez
Posts: 979
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Post by EM Vürinalt on Feb 16, 2008 9:03:53 GMT -6
I like the idea of translating bills in to El Glhetg, but I think the second thing you attached here is unnessicary.
Having the King actually sign bills would be nice, but is an unnessicary complication in the passing of bills and ammendments. I think, for Talossa's needs at the moment, the internet signing works just fine.
Perhaps you can reword it saying that the King may sign it on the internet, allowing the law to go into affect, then a bill mailed to him so he can actually sign-sign it.
We then have solid records of all bills, but don't have the complication of mail delivery times to interfere with the enaction of bills.
As for the first section of your bill, kudos, I think it's a great idea. We have two official languages, and official languages are, by common acceptance, the languages that the law is written in.
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Post by Dréu Gavárþic'h on Feb 16, 2008 9:11:39 GMT -6
The bill says that the King could just be emailed bills. Then he would print them out. Sign them. Re-scan them, and send them back. Easy. Plus, this would force the bills to be a cooler more bill-like format, complete with seals and stuff.
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Sir C. M. Siervicül
Posts: 9,636
Talossan Since: 8-13-2005
Knight Since: 7-28-2007
Motto: Nonnisi Deo serviendum
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Post by Sir C. M. Siervicül on Feb 16, 2008 9:46:01 GMT -6
I think it would be really cool if all laws are available in Talossan as well as English, but if this is just an ordinary law it probably wouldn't be able to bind other, future laws. So you might want to recast the law as either an OrgLaw amendment or as a resolution expressing the sense of the Ziu that all bills ought to be Clarked in both national languages, and strongly encouraging all members of the Ziu to do so. I would suggest trying the latter approach first to see how it works out in practice before trying to entrench it in the OrgLaw. Also, the effect of section 2 is a little unclear. Read literally, it just says that legislators can make a request, which doesn't seem to be necessary to provide for by law because anyone can request that anyone else do pretty much anything at any time. If it's meant to imply that the requestees have to comply with such "requests," that's problematic. For one thing, the CÚG is an independent, private organisation and it seems wrong to try to commandeer their resources by pressing them into service as a bill-translating service for the government. For another, there is one Ladintsch Naziunal and there are twenty-five current members of the Ziu. Trends indicate that the former number is likely to remain stable and the latter number, if anything, is likely to grow.
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Post by Dréu Gavárþic'h on Feb 16, 2008 10:04:07 GMT -6
How exactly would "a sense of the Ziu" be drafted?
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Capt. Sir Mick Preston
Capitán of the Zouaves
Posts: 6,511
Talossan Since: 9-21-2006
Knight Since: 10-12-2010
Motto: Cuimhnichibh air na daoine bho'n d'thainig sibh
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Post by Capt. Sir Mick Preston on Feb 16, 2008 10:27:29 GMT -6
Why would I need to email the King a bill, when he has access to them here?
That seems rather redundant, and unnecessary.
What's he to do with these signed Copies of these emailed bills? Store them in his garage? Wallpaper his reading room with them?
I feel this is another unnecessary "Let's change things, because we can" act.
Is anything Broken?
Nope.
No fixing necessary.
Let's move on to your next "Act of the Day" law.
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Sir C. M. Siervicül
Posts: 9,636
Talossan Since: 8-13-2005
Knight Since: 7-28-2007
Motto: Nonnisi Deo serviendum
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Post by Sir C. M. Siervicül on Feb 16, 2008 10:27:44 GMT -6
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Feb 16, 2008 11:18:53 GMT -6
I actually really like this bill. MC Preston, I see your point, but I think it would be both interesting and valuable for the King to accumulate the bills and sign them, so we would have a physical record and living artifact for the future. Maybe it is unnecessary to have the SoS print them out and send them, though, when the King could just print them out. I would suggest an alternate wording of the effective part of the document, to make it a little more pompous (always good), somewhat more voluntary, and to capitalize Clark (as is technically proper, I think, though even I often use the lowercase form casually).
THEREFORE be it hereby recorded that it is the collective will of the Ziu that:
1. If at all possible, bills presented for review in the Hopper should be translated into Talossan before being Clarked. 2. The King shall sign a physical printed copy of bills at the time they pass into law, and collect these bills for posterity.
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Capt. Sir Mick Preston
Capitán of the Zouaves
Posts: 6,511
Talossan Since: 9-21-2006
Knight Since: 10-12-2010
Motto: Cuimhnichibh air na daoine bho'n d'thainig sibh
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Post by Capt. Sir Mick Preston on Feb 16, 2008 11:34:12 GMT -6
My concern is that if one of our members (ok, most of our members) of the Ziu are not fluent in the Talossan language.
If we require that they translate their bills before they can get Clarked, how are they supposed to do that?
Are we penalizing those that can't converse in the talossan language, in favor of those that can?
What if an English speaking only member of the Ziu wants to Clark an Act, but can't find anyone to translate it for him?
Will the SoS have to keep two Clarks, one in English, one in Talossan?
I think that while this may be a cool idea, in practice it has some serious flaws.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Feb 16, 2008 11:42:31 GMT -6
Considering I have little grasp of the language, I entirely understand your concern. That's why I added extra language in my proposed amendment to the bill, to make it clear it is entirely voluntary and that bills need not be translated to be clarked. Making it voluntary solves most of the above issues. I do not think it would be necessary to have two Clarks.
Perhaps I should amend my amendment to make it even more clear it is not a necessity to have a Talossan version before something is Clarked?
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Capt. Sir Mick Preston
Capitán of the Zouaves
Posts: 6,511
Talossan Since: 9-21-2006
Knight Since: 10-12-2010
Motto: Cuimhnichibh air na daoine bho'n d'thainig sibh
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Post by Capt. Sir Mick Preston on Feb 16, 2008 11:44:25 GMT -6
If it's optional, then I won't have any concerns about it.
It's all 'cut and paste' in my world.
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EM Vürinalt
Citizen since 12-20-2007
Parletz, am?c, en entrez
Posts: 979
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Post by EM Vürinalt on Feb 16, 2008 11:52:03 GMT -6
I agree with Senator Davis' proposed ammendment to this bill.
Like others have said, this would not require two seperate Clarks as long as the bills say exactly the same thing in their respective languages.
Dréu, thanks for clearing up the snail mail issue thing. I agree with the signature measure now, and it certainly adds a new facet to Talossan history.
I do believe, however, that the King should take it upon himself to scan the signed copies into a PDF and the PDF of all the signed, formally formatted amendments be made availiable on KoT.net under the Statuary law section for legal purposes.
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Post by Owen Edwards on Feb 16, 2008 12:05:46 GMT -6
I like this Bill, and I think AD's amendment suggestion makes it clearer. I think the ideas of actually having the a physical involvement in the enacting of laws, and a record for posterity, are great. It certainly fits into my general thinking on keeping hard copies of our history!
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Post by Sevastáin Casálmac'h on Feb 16, 2008 13:39:44 GMT -6
The King shall...collect these bills for posterity. Just a thought: wouldn't it be better for the Scribe of Abavilla to collect the bills?
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Feb 16, 2008 13:45:24 GMT -6
Perhaps. Maybe we should ask the King if he would be willing to sign them and then send them to the Scribe/Archivist/whoever. But let's wait for the author of this bill to reply before moving forward with any more amendments; he may not want to make any.
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