THE NAVAL REORGANIZATION ACT

[Lord Q]

RZ ___ THE NAVAL REORGANIZATION ACT

WHEREAS, "The Glorious (but Unarmed) Royal Fleet Act" submitted by Robert Madison and Wes Erni officially created the Royal Talossan Navy on 30 November 1987, and

WHEREAS, in July of 1998, former Prime Minister Chirisch Caveir re-established Talossa’s Navy by way of Prime Dictate, and

WHEREAS, nothing much has happened to it since,

THEREFORE, the Navy is hereby reorganized as the BUREAU OF THE NAVY, to be placed under the jurisdiction of the Ministry of Defence. This document supersedes any previous Prime Dictate or law concerning the establishment and administration of the Navy.

FURTHERMORE, there is lots of other cool stuff to do, so here goes:

1. The Navy shall be officially known as El Marì Rexhitál Talossán, or in English, The Talossan Royal Navy.

2. Vessels of the Navy shall be styled Vaißál da Sieu Maxhestà (abbreviated VSM) followed by the name of the vessel. The English translation is “His Majesty’s Ship,” but is not to be used for styling.

3. The Navy shall have a Marine Corps and an Air Corps at its disposal for operations on land and in air.

4. Bases of the Navy shall be styled El Marì Rexhitál Talossán (abbreviated MRT) followed by their designation (translations may be used):

Regular Navy: Port (Port) <name>
Marine Corps: Castrâ (Camp) <name>
Air Corps: Luc’htstaziun (Air Station) <name>

5. The Monarch or Regent is the Commander-in-Chief of the Navy, and may hold no other position in the Navy.

6. The Defence Minister shall establish rules and regulations, consistent with the provisions of this Act, regarding the organization and discipline of the Bureau of the Navy, and the recruitment, training, assignment and promotion of its personnel.

7. The Navy shall be administered by an Admiral, appointed by the Monarch or Regent upon recommendation by the Defence Minister and approved by a majority vote in the Ziu.

8. Officers receive their commission by the Monarch or Regent upon recommendation by the Defence Minister.

9. Enlisted personnel receive their rating by the Defence Minister upon recommendation by the Admiral.

10. The Prime Minister and Defence Minister may not hold the position of Admiral; if the Admiral achieves one of these positions then he or she must resign the appointment of Admiral and all relinquish all privileges of the rank.

11. Officers other than Admiral and enlisted personnel becoming Prime Minister or Defense Minister will be placed on inactive status until such time they no longer hold the aforementioned government positions, when they will be placed back on the active duty roster.

12. Naval officer ranks from highest to lowest, with counterpart designations and stylings are:

Amirál (Admiral) – One 2-inch gold stripe on lower sleeve or epaulette

Comodôr (Commodore) / Cuminár (Colonel – Marine Corps) / Comándereu da flanc (Wing Commander – Air Corps) – Four ½-inch gold stripes on lower sleeve or epaulette

Capitán (Captain) – Three ½-inch gold stripes on lower sleeve or epaulette

Leftenanteu (Lieutenant) Two ½-inch gold stripes on lower sleeve or epaulette

Aspirînd (Midshipman) (Cadet – Marine Corps and Air Corps) One ½-inch gold stripe on lower sleeve or epaulette

13. Naval enlisted rates from highest to lowest, with counterpart designations and stylings are:

Cunceláin Prima (Chief Petty Officer) / Sërxhënt Mestreu (Master Sergeant – Marine Corps and Air Corps) -

Cunceláin (Petty Officer) / Sërxhënt (Sergeant – Marine Corps and Air Corps) – Three ½-inch green chevrons (point down) with red trim on upper sleeve

Mastelôt mestreu (Leading Seaman) / Corporál (Corporal – Marine Corps) / Aviatéir mestreu (Leading Airman – Air Corps) – Two ½-inch green chevrons (point down) with red trim on upper sleeve

Mastelôt (Seaman) / Privat (Private – Marine Corps) / Aviatéir (Airman – Air Corps) – One ½-inch green chevron (point down) with red trim on upper sleeve

Rescrusteu (Recruit) – no styling

Uréu q'estadra så: Quedéir Castiglhâ

[Lord Q]

Let's get crackalakin'.

One thing we need to talk about is oversight of privateers during time of war.

Ben didn't like the translation of Air Station, but his suggestion I feel is too long. Thoughts?

I'm still not keen on naming the entry rank Aspirind. Certainly our lovely language can divine something that sounds better than a headache remedy.

An insignia for Cunceláin Prima/Sërxhënt Mestreu will be needed. Three down plus something over the chevrons is what I was thinking.

Cresti earlier brought up the fact that Capitans and Cuminars aren't on the same rank level. I thought that each line needed a leading field officer, so that's why I put Comodors, Cuminars, and Comandereus on the same level.

Marc Moisan needs to be mentioned as a major contributor as well.

[Sir C. M. Siervicül]

Huzzah! Anchors aweigh and all that rot. Aspirind doesn't bother me, but I suppose we could replace it with Aifierísch (Ensign). Ensign should probably apply across all services if you make the switch - it was originally an Army rank. I'm glad you incorporated the new senior NCO rank. Three chevrons with an arch (upside-down rocker?) sounds good to me.

How about your idea about ship classes (human, wind, and motor-powered)? Did you decide not to put that in the reorg bill?

[King John]

Very nice. Thank you, Q and Marc!

How about Comodôr/General having some other insignia, Catpain/Colonel being four stripes, Commander being three? That would maintain the traditional equivalency between Captains and Colonels.

— John Woolley, UrN

[Sir C. M. Siervicül]

john said:

Very nice. Thank you, Q and Marc!

How about Comodôr/General having some other insignia, Catpain/Colonel being four stripes, Commander being three? That would maintain the traditional equivalency between Captains and Colonels.

— John Woolley, UrN

The difficulty is that "captain" means a very different thing in the Army/Air Force/Marines than in the Navy. The objective was, I think, to have a simplified rank structure (only 5 officer ranks versus the traditional 10) that's still practical. What would be the Marine/Air Corps equivalent of Commander under your scheme? Maybe Major/Squadron Leader?

Commander is, I think, a relatively new rank as naval ranks go. Before that the Royal Navy had different grades of captains. That practice still obtains in the French navy, where, instead of lieutenant commanders, commanders, and captains, they have captains of corvettes, captains of frigates, and captains of ships of the line.

[Lord Q]

I tried to approach ranks from a somewhat historical perspective. Both Commodores and Colonels command groups of Captains in armies and navies. I wanted Lieutenants and Captains lined up in ours instead of following a modern model (I could break into song here ), so I used that as a logical starting point. I only wanted one Admiral, hence Commodore (a much cooler title anyway) rather than Rear Admiral (lower half). I also wanted the Admiral to be THE general officer, so no actual Generals. I picked Wing Commander because 1. it sounds cool, 2. of its modern equivalency to Lt. Colonel (above Captain), and 3. it's British, and British stuff is cool.

My intent is for there to be only one Comodor, Cuminar, and Comandereu each. They would be the primary field officers, with the Admiral being the administrator (kinda like SecNav). Due to our population size, it makes sense anyway (too many chiefs and not enough Indians, or so it goes).

Marc and I discussed this at length and decided we really should go with our own thing - three stripe captains, Comodor/Cuminar/Comandereu alignment, etc.

[Lord Q]

Aspirind doesn't bother me, but I suppose we could replace it with Aifierísch (Ensign). Ensign should probably apply across all services if you make the switch - it was originally an Army rank.

That would make sense. I find it odd that Talossan has no word for "cadet."

I'm glad you incorporated the new senior NCO rank. Three chevrons with an arch (upside-down rocker?) sounds good to me.

You made a good case for it, counselor. I agree with the insignia.

How about your idea about ship classes (human, wind, and motor-powered)? Did you decide not to put that in the reorg bill?

I didn't know if we should go ahead and put it in there or let Joe and whoever the Admiral will be make that policy. Either's good for me.

Commander is, I think, a relatively new rank as naval ranks go. Before that the Royal Navy had different grades of captains. That practice still obtains in the French navy, where, instead of lieutenant commanders, commanders, and captains, they have captains of corvettes, captains of frigates, and captains of ships of the line.

Wasn't it like Captain, Post-Captain, and Commodore?

The Commander rank appeared about the time of or after the Civil War when the US Navy make the same split.

About the mestreu modifier - the translations ought to be unified. Do we stick with Leading or go with Master? I kind of like Master better.

One last thing tonight - the obvious way to tell the branches from one another on the uniform would be by color, like as a background to the rate/rank insignia, on the collar, or something like that. My thoughts are blue - regular Navy, red or green - Marine Corps, gray - Air Corps. Any other ideas?

[Trotxâ]

Hooah for the Navy. "Sodomy, Rum, and the Lash" as Winnie said. I'll be even Sir Ian will support this! Well done!

A few general questions and suggestions before answering Q:

• It should be Department of the Navy, not Bureau. (I'm too old school.)
  
• How about a Special Sea Service to handle the snake-eater/SEAL/SBS tasks. They're part of the Marines.
  
• Are helicopters in the Air Wing, or is the Air Wing limited to fixed wing craft?
  
• Can we assume that the Marines do not have their own air assets?
  
• SEA-BEES - WE NEED SEA-BEES. Are they the Engineers in the Marines?
  
• How about proposing an Admiralty, which, like the Pentagon in the USA, will insure civilian control of the Navy?
  
• Did you want to propose a system of prize money, or leave that to the Admiralty?
  
• To get started, would you consider a purchase system for rank?

castiglha said:

About the mestreu modifier - the translations ought to be unified. Do we stick with Leading or go with Master? I kind of like Master better.

Master - definitely.

castiglha said:

One last thing tonight - the obvious way to tell the branches from one another on the uniform would be by color, like as a background to the rate/rank insignia, on the collar, or something like that. My thoughts are blue - regular Navy, red or green - Marine Corps, gray - Air Corps. Any other ideas?

For officers (these are for officers, right?) we need summer and winter dress specifications, so I propose:

Navy:
Winter Dress: Navy, Gold insignia
Summer Dress: White, Gold insignia

Marines:
Winter Dress: Red Jacket, Khaki Pants with stripe*, White insignia (silver epaulets, if needed)
Summer Dress: Red Jacket, White Pants with stripe*, White insignia (silver epaulets, if needed)

Marine dress uniform stripes reflect branch of specialty:
Green: Infantry
Red: Artillery
Light Blue: Helicopters/Scouts
Navy Blue: Special Sea Service
Gold: Judge Advocate General
Purple: Medical
Buff: Engineers/Sea-bees
Black: Support/Logistics/Supply

Air Wing:
Winter Dress: Royal Blue, Silver insignia
Summer Dress: Light Blue, Silver insignia

I'm not sure if the uniform specifications should be written into law - better to be left to the Admiralty.

Trotxâ

[Sir C. M. Siervicül]

castiglha said:

I didn't know if we should go ahead and put it in there or let Joe and whoever the Admiral will be make that policy. Either's good for me.

I kind of like the idea of putting it in there, since the current definition of the ship classes is in 24PD7, but it doesn't matter much to me. The two schemes could be combined, e.g., a sail powered craft will be a Donatus class vessel and will be named after an individual who has "helped make Talossa one heck of a nation."

Wasn't it like Captain, Post-Captain, and Commodore?

The Commander rank appeared about the time of or after the Civil War when the US Navy make the same split.

Something like that. I believe back in George Washington's time there were three grades of captains, and ultimately the most senior grade became "commodore" and the most junior became "commander." This *was* about the time of the Civil War, and the first U.S. admiral ranks were created around the same time (prior to that admirals were thought to be too aristocratic for a republic). The British rank of commander is a few decades older. Commodore has been around a while in the Royal Navy, but for a long time was a position title (for a captain who commanded a group of ships) rather than an actual rank.

About the mestreu modifier - the translations ought to be unified. Do we stick with Leading or go with Master? I kind of like Master better.

I agree with you and Trotxâ.

One last thing tonight - the obvious way to tell the branches from one another on the uniform would be by color, like as a background to the rate/rank insignia, on the collar, or something like that. My thoughts are blue - regular Navy, red or green - Marine Corps, gray - Air Corps. Any other ideas?

That's a good question - something that probably be spelled out in the reglations. I like the colors. If we kept the rank insignia uniform, we could probably find some commercially available insignia that we could use. USMC enlisted rank turned upside down would be almost perfect, except for the crossed rifles on many of them. These historical reproductions are perfect, though a bit pricy:

www.nchsinc.com/shop/USMC%20Winter%20Chevrons.htm

[Sir C. M. Siervicül]

clemente said:

How about a Special Sea Service to handle the snake-eater/SEAL/SBS tasks. They're part of the Marines.

Shhhh - don't POST about it!

Are helicopters in the Air Wing, or is the Air Wing limited to fixed wing craft?
Can we assume that the Marines do not have their own air assets?

I think all air assets should be in the Air Corps - the Navy will be so small that it would be horribly inefficient to divide things up. Who knows if we will ever see a Talossan helicopter. But we *could* have a private pilot with a small plane become a citizen in the foreseeable future, and if he wanted to join the Navy he would presumably be assigned to the Air Corps to perform reconnaissance missions in support of the fleet and the ground pounders.

SEA-BEES - WE NEED SEA-BEES. Are they the Engineers in the Marines?

That would probably make the most sense.

How about proposing an Admiralty, which, like the Pentagon in the USA, will insure civilian control of the Navy?

I think the Minister of Defense can provide civilian control of the Navy. Since he doesn't really have anything else to oversea (Freudian typo left uncorrected), there's no need for an additional layer of civilian bureaucracy.

Did you want to propose a system of prize money, or leave that to the Admiralty?

I had some ideas about that, but was unsure whether they would be better placed in this bill or in Sir John's.

[Trotxâ]

clemente said:

Marines:
Winter Dress: Red Jacket, Khaki Pants with stripe*, White insignia (silver epaulets, if needed)
Summer Dress: Red Jacket, White Pants with stripe*, White insignia (silver epaulets, if needed)

Marine dress uniform stripes reflect branch of specialty:
Green: Infantry
Red: Artillery
Light Blue: Helicopters/Scouts
Navy Blue: Special Sea Service
Gold: Judge Advocate General
Purple: Medical
Buff: Engineers/Sea-bees
Black: Support/Logistics/Supply

Based on Cresti's comments, I'll modify my Marine dress uniform recommendations (and add one I missed):

Green: Infantry
Red: Artillery
Light Blue: Scouts/Reconnaissance/Airborne
Navy Blue: Special Sea Service
Gold: Judge Advocate General/Inspector General
Purple: Medical
Buff: Engineers/Sea-bees
Haze Gray: Quartermasters/Support/Logistics/Supply
Black: Shore Patrol/MP

[Evan Campbell]

What about the Air corp, what are thier Ranks? All I see is Dress uniforms

[Trotxâ]

historyguy said:

What about the Air corp, what are their Ranks? All I see is Dress uniforms

Look again at the Q's proposal - the Air Corps (note spelling) is there.

Trotxâ

[Joel Wood]

First of all, I would like to thank all interested and involved parties! This appears to be an organized and well-conceived plan. I like the fact that it gives a sincere nod to history yet retains a distinct element of Talossanity. Congratulations to all who have taken the time to prepare and deliver this fine piece of necessary work!!

I was especially intrigued by the addition of the special operations element (SSS) as I think this will uniquely contribute towards our ability to act in accordance with Talossan interests in an efficient, precise and economical manner. While we currently lack a standing air wing, naval fleet or any of the other major assets needed by a military structure; we do have a small contingent of (prospective and affirmed) citizens who have experience in these affairs and I am sure, would readily donate time and energies to provide a screen for our blessed Kingdom until the major assets come on line.

A suggestion, the United States Marine Corps has reversed its opinion that every Marine is a commando in his own right and has conceded that both Battalion and Force Reconnaissance assets might best be served under the direction of SOCOM. The Marine Special Operations Command (MARSOC) has performed admirably in operations over the last few years with the old hands (SEALs, CAG, Task Force xyz's etc...) fighting by their side. They do the same missions and are just as capable as their sailor and soldier counterparts. My overall suggestion is that we combine all small unit, direct action capable assets (reconnaissance, scout sniper, counter terrorist, hostage rescue, counter insurgency, human exploitation etc...) under the heading of the SSS in order to avoid force duplication and mission replication. Having all of our our specialized, small unit assets in one basket would make administrative taskings much simpler and hopefully provide for an overall greater level of timeliness and efficiency until we can acquire a squadron of jets or a fleet of majestic ships. I firmly believe that a well organized unit of surgical, smart, tactically proficient and technically capable warriors can act as a temporary shield for most threats to our great nation until we are able to hash out the specifics of the broadsword applications organic to the Navy and Air Corps proper.

With or without this tiny revision I firmly believe this is a great proposal and am intrigued to see how we will implement it's simplicity and brilliance in the cause of defense for all Talossans!

Joel M. Wood

(In the spirit of making the smallest branch the most vocal, an oorah moment...)

"There are only two kinds of people that understand Marines: Marines and the enemy. Everyone else has a second-hand opinion." Gen. William Thornson, U.S. Army

"Marines I see as two breeds, Rottweilers or Dobermans, because Marines come in two varieties, big and mean, or skinny and mean. They're aggressive on the attack and tenacious on defense. They've got really short hair and they always go for the throat."
RAdm. "Jay" R. Stark, USN; 10 November 1995

[Ups Antônio Martüc]

castiglha said:

RZ ___ THE NAVAL REORGANIZATION ACT

WHEREAS, "The Glorious (but Unarmed) Royal Fleet Act" submitted by Robert Madison and Wes Erni officially created the Royal Talossan Navy on 30 November 1987, and

WHEREAS, in July of 1998, former Prime Minister Chirisch Caveir re-established Talossa’s Navy by way of Prime Dictate, and

WHEREAS, nothing much has happened to it since,

THEREFORE, the Navy is hereby reorganized as the BUREAU OF THE NAVY, to be placed under the jurisdiction of the Ministry of Defence. This document supersedes any previous Prime Dictate or law concerning the establishment and administration of the Navy.

FURTHERMORE, there is lots of other cool stuff to do, so here goes:

1. The Navy shall be officially known as El Marì Rexhitál Talossán, or in English, The Talossan Royal Navy.

2. Vessels of the Navy shall be styled Vaißál da Sieu Maxhestà (abbreviated VSM) followed by the name of the vessel. The English translation is “His Majesty’s Ship,” but is not to be used for styling.

3. The Navy shall have a Marine Corps and an Air Corps at its disposal for operations on land and in air.

4. Bases of the Navy shall be styled El Marì Rexhitál Talossán (abbreviated MRT) followed by their designation (translations may be used):

Regular Navy: Port (Port) <name>
Marine Corps: Castrâ (Camp) <name>
Air Corps: Luc’htstaziun (Air Station) <name>

5. The Monarch or Regent is the Commander-in-Chief of the Navy, and may hold no other position in the Navy.

6. The Defence Minister shall establish rules and regulations, consistent with the provisions of this Act, regarding the organization and discipline of the Bureau of the Navy, and the recruitment, training, assignment and promotion of its personnel.

7. The Navy shall be administered by an Admiral, appointed by the Monarch or Regent upon recommendation by the Defence Minister and approved by a majority vote in the Ziu.

8. Officers receive their commission by the Monarch or Regent upon recommendation by the Defence Minister.

9. Enlisted personnel receive their rating by the Defence Minister upon recommendation by the Admiral.

10. The Prime Minister and Defence Minister may not hold the position of Admiral; if the Admiral achieves one of these positions then he or she must resign the appointment of Admiral and all relinquish all privileges of the rank.

11. Officers other than Admiral and enlisted personnel becoming Prime Minister or Defense Minister will be placed on inactive status until such time they no longer hold the aforementioned government positions, when they will be placed back on the active duty roster.

12. Naval officer ranks from highest to lowest, with counterpart designations and stylings are:

Amirál (Admiral) – One 2-inch gold stripe on lower sleeve or epaulette

Comodôr (Commodore) / Cuminár (Colonel – Marine Corps) / Comándereu da flanc (Wing Commander – Air Corps) – Four ½-inch gold stripes on lower sleeve or epaulette

Capitán (Captain) – Three ½-inch gold stripes on lower sleeve or epaulette

Leftenanteu (Lieutenant) Two ½-inch gold stripes on lower sleeve or epaulette

Aspirînd (Midshipman) (Cadet – Marine Corps and Air Corps) One ½-inch gold stripe on lower sleeve or epaulette

13. Naval enlisted rates from highest to lowest, with counterpart designations and stylings are:

Cunceláin Prima (Chief Petty Officer) / Sërxhënt Mestreu (Master Sergeant – Marine Corps and Air Corps) -

Cunceláin (Petty Officer) / Sërxhënt (Sergeant – Marine Corps and Air Corps) – Three ½-inch green chevrons (point down) with red trim on upper sleeve

Mastelôt mestreu (Leading Seaman) / Corporál (Corporal – Marine Corps) / Aviatéir mestreu (Leading Airman – Air Corps) – Two ½-inch green chevrons (point down) with red trim on upper sleeve

Mastelôt (Seaman) / Privat (Private – Marine Corps) / Aviatéir (Airman – Air Corps) – One ½-inch green chevron (point down) with red trim on upper sleeve

Rescrusteu (Recruit) – no styling

Uréu q'estadra så: Quedéir Castiglhâ

I like this. And when the Navy starts recruiting, i'll be signing up I just hope Talossa doesn't end up like the pre-soviet navy... Basically wealthy civilians with no naval experience got to lead their own vessels into battle for russia...They were slaughtered by the Japanese..