Talossan Christian Fellowship

[Trotxâ]

siervicul said:

That is an interesting article. However, Dréu is neither religiously Jewish nor a Zionist. So the fact that Fundamentalists and Evangelicals tend to be strong supporters of Israel is not a big positive for him.

So, you're saying that Dréu is not arguing from faith or from philosophy?

I would be shocked to learn that he's just being argumentative.

Sir T

[Ieremiac'h Ventrutx]

>I'm not a dispensationalist (and I'm not trying to start a debate about THAT)

Sir T Covenant Theology then?

[Dréu Gavárþic'h]

Also, most very religious Jews don't support Israel either.

EDIT: I didn't see Sir T's thread so I'll reply to that as well:

So, you're saying that Dréu is not arguing from faith or from philosophy?

Of course I'm not... I'm arguing for my race (yes, Jews are a race, it's true, and if anyone starts up about how they're not.... you're just wrong... deal with it). The Elders of Zion is the most disgusting book ever written. It was written by Anti-Semites in Russia, and was widely believed to be a true book. It's horrible towards the Jewish race (of which I am) and towards the Jewish Religion (of which I highly respect).

[Capt. Sir Mick Preston]

Then, by your logic-

Christians are a Race, Muslims are a race, Buddhists are a race, Rastafarian's are a race, Hindus are a race...

Sorry.

But Religions are not races. They are a belief. the are a moral choice. They are a decision.

You can't chose to be Caucasian, Oriental, Aboriginal, etc. Those are races of mankind. they are not religions.

Even the concept of "race" is ludicrous. Once you take of the first few layers of epidermis, all humans are indistinguishable from each other.

[Dréu Gavárþic'h]

Sigh...

You're quite right about that race thingy. There really are no such things genetically. However the group of people from a certain geographical area that one person identifies with could possibly be called a "race."

As for Judaism, it is quite different than Christianity or Islam or Buddhism or Rastafarians etc. Those religions have people convert to them and do not claim a common ancestor. Judaism also has converts but they are not exactly... encouraged. We all claim ancestry from Abraham and thus.... we could be considered a race.

EDIT: Also, if Jew wasn't a race... then what "race" would I be?

[Capt. Sir Mick Preston]

"However the group of people from a certain geographical area that one person identifies with could possibly be called a "race." "

Then the French , Hungarians, Burmese, Japanese , Swedes , Americans are 'Races" ?

If I move from Kentucky to Ireland, do I change my 'race' ?

=============================================
"We all claim ancestry from Abraham and thus.... we could be considered a race."

Everyone alive on the earth today can make that claim. If you think of all the potential couplings of man and woman for the past 3000 + years, we all share some of the same genetic material. Ever notice how they trace people's roots back, and all the politicians are related through some King of England 600 years ago? Ever notice how every Irishman can trace back their linage to some Irish King, somewhere?

After umpteen generations, umpteen children from umpteen breedings, and so on, and so on- We are all related.

=====================

I'm not a geneticist. I have no way of telling what genetic marks you have in your chromosomes. I have no idea what your 'family tree" looks like.

But I do know this- you are a member of the Human race, and that's all that really matters.

[Owen Edwards]

Jews are part of the Semitic race.

The common ancestor in your example should be Isaac, not Abraham.

[Sir C. M. Siervicül]

owenfsf said:

Jews are part of the Semitic race.

The common ancestor in your example should be Isaac, not Abraham.

Semitic is much broader than Jewish, though. The boundaries between "race" and "ethnicity" are far from clear, but it IS clear that Jewishness is more than purely religious. The Samaritans are an example of a Jewish/Hebrew/Israelite people of disparate religion.

[Deleted]

siervicul said:

owenfsf said:

Jews are part of the Semitic race.

The common ancestor in your example should be Isaac, not Abraham.

Semitic is much broader than Jewish, though. The boundaries between "race" and "ethnicity" are far from clear, but it IS clear that Jewishness is more than purely religious. The Samaritans are an example of a Jewish/Hebrew/Israelite people of disparate religion.

In most cases it is not the group that removes themselves, but the people that hate the group that removes them from the larger set. In that case, people form communities for protection. Such as the case with the Jew, they were Jewish by religion, and due to anti-Semitism, they were forced into becoming a "separate" race.

[Dréu Gavárþic'h]

vitooliver said:

siervicul said:

Semitic is much broader than Jewish, though. The boundaries between "race" and "ethnicity" are far from clear, but it IS clear that Jewishness is more than purely religious. The Samaritans are an example of a Jewish/Hebrew/Israelite people of disparate religion.

In most cases it is not the group that removes themselves, but the people that hate the group that removes them from the larger set. In that case, people form communities for protection. Such as the case with the Jew, they were Jewish by religion, and due to anti-Semitism, they were forced into becoming a "separate" race.

I agree with this, but if I might add. Sephardi Jews have darker skin than Europeans in general, and are described as having this even when they lived in Spain, so they clearly cannot be classified as European, but their language and culture is definitely not Arab, so they must be Jews!

[Capt. Sir Mick Preston]

What about the Beta Israel ?

Beta Israel traditions claim that the Ethiopian Jews are descended from the lineage of Moses himself. Some of his children and relatives are said to have separated from the other Children of Israel after the Exodus and gone southwards.

Alternatively, or together with this theory, Ethiopian Jews are descended from the tribe of Dan. They fled southwards down the Arabian coastal lands from Judaea at the breakup of the united Kingdom of Israel into two kingdoms in the 10th century BCE (precipitated by the oppressive demands of Rehoboam, King Solomon's heir), or at the time of the destruction of the northern Kingdom of Israel in the 8th century BCE.

They are of the Jewish Race, right?

[Dréu Gavárþic'h]

An interesting arguement. Many people say that it is not even clear that Ashkenazi Jews are even Jews given their many distinctly non-semetic traits like fair skin and red and blonde hair. However, it is my belief that they (the Beta Jews) moved to Ethiopia and intermarried with the people there. They are still Jews, but they are also partly Ethiopian. Well... either that or they are just converts.

[Capt. Sir Mick Preston]

This is why I have a hard time pigeonhole-ing people into "race" designations.

If I read you right, then the only true member of the Jewish race is 100% Semitic chromosomes, and currently living in Israel?

Without going all CSI on a person, how do you know that anyone is a Jew?

[Brad Holmes]

mick said:

Without going all CSI on a person, how do you know that anyone is a Jew?

"In that case I won't wear my 'I'm a Slayer, ask me how' button."

"Is there a Slayer t-shirt?! Cause that would be cool."

[Dréu Gavárþic'h]

mick said:

This is why I have a hard time pigeonhole-ing people into "race" designations.

If I read you right, then the only true member of the Jewish race is 100% Semitic chromosomes, and currently living in Israel?

Without going all CSI on a person, how do you know that anyone is a Jew?

How do you know anyone is anything without "going all CSI"? Jews are exceptionally hard to classify because they come in many many variations.