52nd Cosâ, Clark #3 - October 2018 - voting thread

[Gödafrïeu Válcadác’h]

For those of us north of the equator, the air gets more and more nippy as the days wind on toward the Winter Solstice. Azul, everyone, and happy Halloween!

[Lüc da Schir]

Fellow Senators, I rise briefly to support the Provincial Depiction Right of Determination Act, and first off praise my esteemed colleague from Atatürk for introducing in the House of Commons a bill to that effect (regardless of the ultimate color choice). 52RZ07 is a much needed fix to the horrid spawn of an ill-conceived policy, and its passage will be a clear signal that the Senate stands firmly with provincial self determination and against any diktat or overreach by the Government on our provinces's culture and jurisdiction.

Be them too many or too few, provinces are a beacon of Talossanity that we should cherish and support as much as we can; I have done so in my capacity as member of Benito's legislature by supporting a number of culture bills, the first of which passed the Assembly recently, and will continue to do so by voting in favour of this bill. I hope my fellow Senators will concur and support the bill as well.

I yield the floor.

[Ian Plätschisch]

RZ7: Austanéu Contrâ

Hopefully the repeal of this obviously lighthearted Prime Dictate will not discourage people from continuing to update the wiki.

RZ8: Për

[Lüc da Schir]

Oh, don't worry, the Wiki is in good hands... and not a PD in sight.

[Ian Plätschisch]

Oct 7, 2018 11:59:15 GMT -6 Lüc da Schir said:

Oh, don't worry, the Wiki is in good hands... and not a PD in sight.

If the Senator from Benito would like me to proclaim a Day of Observance, he should let me know and I would be more than happy to.

[Sir Alexandreu Davinescu]

Just declare Luc da Schir Day, a day in celebration of him. He deserves it either way!

[Lüc da Schir]

Oct 7, 2018 13:38:12 GMT -6 Ian Plätschisch said:

Oct 7, 2018 11:59:15 GMT -6 Lüc da Schir said:

Oh, don't worry, the Wiki is in good hands... and not a PD in sight.

If the Senator from Benito would like me to proclaim a Day of Observance, he should let me know and I would be more than happy to.

No worries, I've made a point of not asking for a day of observance because I don't like the policy. By all means, if it encourages people to get involved in wiki editing, so be it, but I don't need any incentives to keep editing.

[Gödafrïeu Válcadác’h]

Për from me for both 52RZ7 & 52RZ8.

GV, Fiôvâ

[Alèx Soleighlfred]

52RZ7 - CON.
52RZ8 - PER.

Having heard both points of view, I'm going to vote Contra on 52RZ7.

I understand and admire Luc's dedication to provincial self-determination, but I agree with Gluc that in this particular case the law is being misapplied.
This act has two things in mind: to repeal the PD in question and to ban anyone but the provinces themselves from assigning official colours.

My probles with both is: the Prime Dictate essencially assigns some theme, albeit a pretty abstract one, to a date that's already passed. I mean, it's October already, and like it or not, August, 13. _was_ the #KARED day. Also, the Prime Dictate does not indicate any official color. Ataturk didn't have an official color before the PD, and it doesn't have one after PD. I don't really even find this issue serious. Remember the initial idea behind those PD's, that was all just for fun.

So, this law wants to undo the theme of a day that's already passed, and to protect the future from a precedent that didn't even actually occur.

I understand the idea behind the act, but I urge to rethink the implementation: I suggest that it doesn't have to do with the PD, like, get over it, and it should concern not only self-determination concerning colors, but any culture-wide self-determination. Then it'd make sense.

*cough* Also, #KAGREEN. *cough*

[Sevastáin Pinátsch]

Oct 17, 2018 12:00:16 GMT -6 Alèx Soleighlfred said:

Ataturk didn't have an official color before the PD, and it doesn't have one after PD.    

Actually, we went ahead and passed our own colour bill.

Oct 17, 2018 12:00:16 GMT -6 Alèx Soleighlfred said:

*cough* Also, #KAGREEN. *cough*

Heh!

Too late...

[Alèx Soleighlfred]

Ha! Didn't know about that. Didn't affect the essence of my reasoning though. :)

[Ian Plätschisch]

I hereby change my vote on RZ7 to CONTRÂ.

I had abstained because I considered it my duty not to make a big fuss over trying to preserve a PD I thought was going to be soundly repealed. However, the quantity of Contrâs in the Senäts demonstrates the PD is not the attack on provincial sovereignty the author of the repeal bill claims it is.

To provide a brief rebuttal to some of the author's recent points, many of them hinge on him rejecting interpretations of the PD other than his own because the PD does not make those interpretations explicit.

Oct 14, 2018 9:41:02 GMT -6 Munditenens Tresplet said:

Another secondary argument is that the PD only addresses a specific use of color, that being in graphs. Of course, this is where the disagreement on which color to use initially began, as I discuss in further detail in the post above. That said, the PD does not have any foundational language to suggest the color red was for the limited use of graphs, nor do any of the posts celebrating the day itself suggest that it was for graphs either. Indeed, it was celebrated from a cultural standpoint, with supporters making known their love of the color red with music associated with that color. This places the PD squarely within the cultural dicta category reserved for provinces, as required by OrgLaw, and any attempt to write it off after the fact is demonstrably false.

Oct 16, 2018 17:21:19 GMT -6 Munditenens Tresplet said:

I rise again to address an even more novel argument raised in the voting thread, that being the PD is Organic as the Kingdom has the right to determine provincial symbols that only national level government offices would be required to follow.

It's important to remember the context in which the PD was put into place. At the time, remember, no province had set a symbolic color depiction (as is their exclusive right outside of the enumerated powers of the Ziu).

This PD speaks only to the "correct color" of Atatürk, not the color of any other province. Additionally, as the PD reads, it leaves open the possibility that the color of Maricopa, M-M, Vuode, or any other province under the sun could also be red in addition to Atatürk.

However, everyone knows that a PD cannot violate the Organic Law. So, if a PD has multiple reasonable interpretations, the interpretations that are Organic must be favored over the interpretations that are not. Therefore, the author of the repeal bill is attempting to repeal the PD based on an interpretation that must not be the correct one.

The context surrounding the PD, including the use of the word "denoting" instead of "representing" that suggests the intended scope of the PD is restricted to graphs, provides ample evidence to support interpretations of the PD that are not inOrganic.

[Sir C. M. Siervicül]

RZ7: Per
RZ8: Per