The Royal Civil Service (Establishment) Bill

[Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN]

WHEREAS the continuing and needless duplication between the functions of the Royal Household and the Civil Service has been a bugbear for ages;
AND WHEREAS it has been credibly suggested that the lack of qualified applicants for the Civil Service is due to "Royal Household" simply sounding cooler;
AND IN THE GENERAL SPIRIT of streamlining and reform of our Governmental structures shown by the Seneschál recent "house-cleaning";

BE IT ENACTED BY THE KING, COSA AND SENÄTS OF TALOSSA IN ZIU ASSEMBLED that Title C of El Lexhátx shall be REPEALED and replaced in its entireity by the following two Titles:

C. The Royal Civil Service
1. The following offices are henceforth to be styled the Offices of the Royal Civil Service. The head of each such office shall be considered an Officer of the Royal Civil Service, and the duties and functions of the offices shall be those described below, including for each office any similar duties as may be assigned or imposed. Every Office of the Royal Civil Service shall be responsible to a named Minister of the Government for the day-to-day conduct of their Office.

1.1. The Commissioner of the Royal Civil Service, responsible to the Seneschál. The function of the Commissioner is to recommend to the King the appointment of Permanent Secretaries within the cabinet ministries, as well as other Officers of the Royal Civil Service as well as other non-political appointees as may be appropriate.
1.1.1. The Commissioner may recommend the appointment of permanent secretaries to any ministry based upon their qualifications, willingness to work and taking into consideration the applicant’s performance in prior positions, after consultation with the relevant Minister. The Commissioner shall remove from office any secretary for professional misconduct, inability to perform one’s duties due to incapacitation or failure to perform their required duties.
1.1.2. Dismissed secretaries may contest their dismissal by bringing complaint before a trial court. The court shall consider if any of the petitioner's rights, afforded by law, have been violated. The court shall have the authority to order reinstatement where appropriate or dismiss the complaint, thus sustaining the dismissal.
1.1.3. All Permanent Secretary positions shall exist within the Royal Civil Service and shall be non-political appointments which shall be held until lawful dismissal, resignation or incapacitation. An individual may not hold the offices of Seneschal, Distáin, Justice of the Uppermost Cort, Monarch, or any cabinet portfolio while simultaneously holding an active appointment to a secretary office. In addition, any Secretaries within the Ministry of Justice may not serve as a judge in any inferior court.
1.1.4. Secretaries shall be styled “Honourable” during their tenure.
1.1.5. Secretaries shall serve as the administrative chief of their respective ministries (or parts thereof should that be the Secretary's mandate), tasked with the day to day operation of the ministry’s work or for any other special role assigned to them when their position is created.
1.1.6. Secretaries shall be empowered to appoint and dismiss non-political appointees within their ministry (or part thereof in accordance with 1.1.5 above) with the approval of the Commissioner of the Royal Civil Service and the appropriate Minister. These appointees will retain their offices through changes in government.
1.1.6.1. Section 1.1.6 above shall not be construed to deny Ministers the power to make appointments and dismissals within their Ministry, other than the Secretary and those appointed by them.
1.1.7. Secretaries shall retain their offices through changes of government.
1.1.8. The precise duties, necessary qualifications and expected standards of each secretary shall be determined by law.

1.2. The Chancery, headed by the Secretary of State and responsible to the Minister of STUFF. The functions of the Chancery are to prepare and submit the Clark, determine and report the passage or failure of each resolution considered by the Ziu, conduct, certify, and report upon all national elections, maintain the census and citizenship list, assist the citizenry in determining Talossan-language personal names and registering the same, register political parties, communicate census information to political party leaders, and track and maintain legislative seating assignments.
1.2.1. One member of the Chancery shall be the Royal Data Clerk, heading the Office of Dynamic Data Management. The function of the Office of Dynamic Data Management is to manage all computer records owned by the Kingdom of Talossa for its official functions and delegated to its care in order to help other Royal Civil Services, Ministries or any other organization of the Kingdom which needs data management. The Royal Data Clerk may be the same person as the Secretary of State. The Royal Data Clerk shall be considered an Officer of the Royal Civil Service.
1.2.1.1. Once the first Royal Data Clerk accepts his position, and once two members of the Cort pu Inalt have confirmed that they are in receipt of full and accessible backups of the database system currently hosted on talossa.ca, this database shall be considered to be the property of the Office of Dynamic Data Management and thus, the property of the Kingdom of Talossa
1.2.2. The Bureau of the Census within the Chancery shall conduct a census of all citizens of Talossa, collecting demographic information and updating the Chancery's contact details for the citizenry. A census shall be performed every two calendar years, or more frequently if the Seneschal so requests.
1.2.2.1. The only required questions for any respondent on the Talossan Census shall be (a) current Talossan and non-Talossan names, and (b) citizen contact details (preferably email). The Chancery will provide an option for respondents to share their email address with party leaders, pursuant to Lex.D.8.5.4.
1.2.2.2. Other questions on the Talossan Census shall be identical to the questions on the last census. These questions may be changed by the Chancery, either of its own volition or on request from the Seneschal, but any changes shall be approved by the Ziu. These questions will be marked as optional, and at no time shall a citizen be forced or required to respond to an optional question.
1.2.2.3. Any information collected during the census that would individually identify any person or persons, including their contact information, shall be withheld from the public for to protect individual privacy, consistent with Lex.D.8. The only exception is that citizens may opt to have their e-mail address shared with party leaders, pursuant to Lex.D.8.5.4. Census information shall not be released under any "freedom of information" or "government transparency" requests, notwithstanding any other provisions of el Lexhatx.
1.2.2.4. Demographic information and other information that does not identify the respondents shall be made available within thirty (30) days of the conclusion of any census.
1.2.3. The Scribery of Abbavilla, headed by the Scribe of Abbavilla. The functions of the Scribery are to maintain and publish the Organic and statutory laws of the Kingdom.
1.2.3.1. The Scribe of Abbavilla shall maintain all laws in L'Anuntzia dels Legeux, insofar as possible, with the same content that was approved by the Ziu, except that amending acts that refer to section numbers in pre-existing statutes that were changed by the Scribery shall be construed as referring to the equivalent section numbers in the amended statutes as originally enacted.
1.2.3.2. The Scribe of Abbavilla shall maintain el Lexhatx in accordance with the directions in Title Z. The Scribe shall thus advise all proposers of bills to the Clark on proper formatting of their bills to conform with Title Z.
1.2.3.3. If the Scribe, or their deputy(s), finds an error in the formatting, grammar, or spelling of a bill which is currently in the Clark, or is alerted of same, they shall work with the sponsor of the bill to fix said error(s).
1.3.3.1. The Scribe, or their deputy(s), shall publicize any proposed changes to a bill, with the approval of the author. The changes are deemed to have been implemented after they have been public for seven days, unless the changes are disallowed by the conditions of C.1.2.3.3.2
1.3.3.2. If, before the proposed changes are implemented, a petition of MCs representing at least 1/3 of the seats in the Cosa, or a petition of at least 1/3 of the Senators, goes before the Scribe in protest of the proposed changes to a bill, the changes cannot be implemented.
1.2.4. The Royal Archives, headed by the Royal Archivist. The function of the Archives is to preserve and make available the historical artifacts and information of the Kingdom in museums and other venues.
1.2.4.1. The Royal Archiver be always known throughout the Kingdom of Talossa as Royal Archivist.
1.2.4.2. No Public Record or Archive under the control of a Governmental body and/or the Royal Civil Service Body shall be destroyed, erased or otherwise disposed of without the written authorisation of the Royal Archivist. This Authorisation or Refusal must be announced on Wittenberg within three days of such Authorisation or Refusal is made. Authorisation or Refusal by the Royal Archivist for the destruction of an Archive may be overturned by a resolution passed by the Ziu.
1.2.4.3. An Archive/record that has been granted authorisation for disposal may not be disposed until after thirty days after such an authorisation is granted.
1.2.4.4. Any person who damages or causes to be damaged any Public Archive or Record in the control of a Governmental or Royal Civil Service body; or damages or causes to be damaged any Public Archive in the control of a Private body, Community and/or Individual; or removes, destroys or erases such Public record or archive otherwise than in accordance with this provision or any other law, shall be guilty of a Class A misdemeanour if such damage, removal, destruction, or erasure was wilful, or guilty of a Class C misdemeanour if such damage, removal, destruction, or erasure was reckless.
1.2.4.5. The Royal Archivist may refuse to allow any person convicted of an offence in terms of these provisions, access to an archives repository for such period as he or she may deem fit, subject to an appeal to the Uppermost Cort.
1.2.4.6. For the purpose of this provision a Public Record and Archive is hereby defined as: "Public Archive" or "Public Record" means a record/archive created or received by a governmental or Royal Civil Service body in pursuance of its activities."
1.2.4.7. At the end of each Clark, the Archivist shall post the link provided by the Secretary of State to the Chancery website.
1.2.5. All members of the Chancery are to be considered as if they were Deputy Secretary of State, without the ability to replace the Secretary should he become unavailable. Members may act in the name of the Secretary of State and perform official business as delegated to them by the Secretary. Once the requirements of C.1.2.1.1 above have been fulfilled, at least three members of the Chancery at any time shall have all the access required to carry out the Chancery's functions under this section.

1.3. The Royal Treasury, headed by the Burgermeister of Inland Revenue and responsible to the Minister of Finance. The function of the treasury is to:
1.3.1. collect all revenues due to the King,
1.3.2. maintain and report to the Finance Minister and the Government on the fiduciary health of the Kingdom, at least once in every two calendar months and whenever else requested
1.3.3. disburse from the treasury all funds legitimately appropriated by the Ziu,
1.3.4. keep a record of all changes in the account balances of the Royal Treasury.

1.4. The College of Arms, headed by the Squirrel King (or Queen) of Arms and responsible to the Minister of Culture. The function of the College of Arms is to create and maintain all Talossan flags and coats of arms and achievements, to advise and support the King in the awarding of all such arms and all titles of honour and nobility, to advise the citizens regarding heraldic issues, and to govern the armorial practice and regulations of the Kingdom.

1.5. The Royal Society for the Advancement of Knowledge, headed by the President of the Royal Society and responsible to the Minister of Culture. The function of the Royal Society is to conduct and promote research and academic study in all areas of human endeavour.
1.5.1. Schools may be created within the Society for the purpose of focusing on a specific subject. The exact procedure for establishing a school shall be chosen by the President, who shall also appoint a dean to supervise each school.

1.6. Here so by the Ziu be enacted,
as follows, in verses protracted:
that we do create
a new office of state
to accomplish the purpose abstracted.
El Metrefieir Laureat
shall the office be named, come to that,
and we won't be sorry that
this Poet Laureate
will our Royal Civil Service work at.
PM shall advise, King confirm,
this soul to an indefinite term
of true dedication
to versification
on topics of public concern.
1.6.1. To the Culture Minister shall the Poet Laureate
Be responsible; it was hard to find a rhyme for that.

2. The Commissioner of the Royal Civil Service shall be appointed by the King, for a two-year renewable term, after being recommended by the Seneschál and approved by a two-thirds majority vote in the Cosa and a majority vote of the Senäts in favour of appointment. The King, with the advice and consent of the Seneschál, may remove from office the Commissioner of the Royal Civil Service for professional misconduct, inability to perform their duties due to incapacitation or failure to perform their required duties.

3. The other Officers of the Royal Civil Service shall have no fixed terms of office and shall not be removed from office by the dissolution of the Cosa. The other Officers of the Royal Civil Service are appointed and removed by the King on the recommendation of the Commissioner of the Royal Civil Service.

4. Any dismissed Officers shall be entitled to judicial review of their removal, by bringing complaint before a trial court. The court shall consider if any of the petitioner's rights, afforded by Organic, statutory, or civil law code, have been violated. The court shall have the authority to order reinstatement where appropriate or dismiss the complaint, thus sustaining the dismissal.

5. Each Officer of the Royal Civil Service is empowered to appoint one or more deputies (with the approval of the Commissioner of the Royal Civil Service) who may act in the place of that officer in all cases. The King and nation shall be informed of all such appointments.

6. Each Officer of the Royal Civil Service is empowered to appoint and dismiss any citizen of Talossa to non-political offices within their branch of the Royal Civil Service – including the heads of those subordinate agencies within their Office described by law, and empowered to organize or reorganize his office in any manner he deems shall best effect its services to the King, with the approval of the Commissioner of the Royal Civil Service, and within the limits set by law. empower any subservient official to make similar appointments and dismissals within any specific agency of the Office of the Royal Civil Service, with the approval of the Commissioner of the Royal Civil Service
7. The Secretary of State and the Commissioner of the Civil Service are prohibited from sitting in the Senäts. The Secretary of State is prohibited from sitting in the Cosa.

L. Law supplementing Article III of the Organic Law
1. The legal guardian of a minor sovereign shall be one or both of the biological or adopted parents of the said sovereign, providing that at least one of the said parents is a citizen of the Kingdom of Talossa. (36RZ1)
1.1. If a minor sovereign is not the biological or adopted child of a Talossan citizen, the minor sovereign shall be a ward of the State. The wardship of the minor monarch shall be executed jointly by the Ziu and the Cort Pü Înalt, through a unanimous vote of the Cort and a two-thirds vote of each house of the Ziu.

2. Should a Senator be chosen as Regent, the temporary holder of the Senatorial seat shall be named by the Premier of the province for which the appointed Regent serves as Senator. (38PD2)
2.1. Should a member of the Cosa be chosen as Regent, the temporary holder(s) of the Cosa seat(s) shall be named by the leader of the political party which had earned and assigned the said seats in the most recent general election.
2.2. The appointments shall be considered effective upon their being provided to the Chancery to be recorded by His Majesty's Secretary of State.
2.3. Persons appointed to vacated Senatorial seats shall be subject to the terms of Article IV, Section 4 of the Organic Law and to any and all other statutory and Organic provisions respecting the exercise of the rights and privileges of the office of Senator, notwithstanding any contrary eligibility and standing held by the appointed Regent/
2.4. Should either of the persons empowered by this law fail to make the said appointment(s) after a period of seven (7) days, the Regent still-serving shall be empowered to make the said appointment(s).

Ureu q'estradra sa: the Government of Talossa

[Eðo Grischun]

It's a really nice big wall of text, so let me just cut it right down to what you're really trying to get passed:

The Commissioner of the Royal Civil Service, responsible to the Seneschál.
The Chancery, headed by the Secretary of State and responsible to the Minister of STUFF.
The Royal Treasury, headed by the Burgermeister of Inland Revenue and responsible to the Minister of Finance.
The College of Arms, headed by the Squirrel King (or Queen) of Arms and responsible to the Minister of Culture.
The Royal Society for the Advancement of Knowledge, headed by the President of the Royal Society and responsible to the Minister of Culture.

Everything else is just the gravy.

With this Bill, the chief members of the Royal Household will be answerable to Ministers of Government. THAT'S THE BILL HERE! The SoS responsible to MinStuff? The College of Arms being folded into MinCult?!?

Your WHEREAS section is wholly disingenuous. It's not really about fixing "needless duplication" and sorting "bugbears". This isn't some minor work of "streamlining", "reform" and "housekeeping" (nice buzzwords, tho), but rather a wholesale selling-off of the Royal House. Another move of Republican Gradualism in an attempt to chip away at the institutions of Monarchy piece by piece.

If the MRPT actually supports you on this then I have absolutely no idea how they can continue calling themselves a Monarchist party while keeping a straight face.

[Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN]

Aug 6, 2018 1:22:02 GMT -6 Eðo Grischun said:

a wholesale selling-off of the Royal House. Another move of Republican Gradualism in an attempt to chip away at the institutions of Monarchy piece by piece.

If the MRPT actually supports you on this then I have absolutely no idea how they can continue calling themselves a Monarchist party while keeping a straight face.

Tell me, o last of the red-hot monarchists: exactly how much oversight and involvement do you think the King has in reality over any of the current "Royal Household" offices? Be honest, now.

No-one is minding the store. Someone should be responsible for the current "Royal Household" offices.

[Eðo Grischun]

Aug 6, 2018 2:28:04 GMT -6 Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN said:

Tell me, o last of the red-hot monarchists: exactly how much oversight and involvement do you think the King has in reality over any of the current "Royal Household" offices? Be honest, now.

Oversight and involvement on a day-to-day? Virtually none. That's the whole point of these officers. These are offices delegated.

He does, however, hire and fire. The King appoints and dismisses these Officers on the recommendations of others though. You could say his role is quasi-ceremonial in that regard. Isn't that how you actually like it?

In most cases he appoints and dismisses based on the recommendation of the Prime Minister. In one case based on the recommendation of the Senate. In another case based on the recommendation of a committee and the Ziu. In two further instances, the King isn't even involved; The Prime Minister, alone, appoints the SecState and Postmaster.

Someone should be responsible for the current "Royal Household" offices.

Should that be? How many layers of 'the bosses bosses boss' do we need? The Officers in charge of these offices are the responsible persons.

Has there been any instances from any these offices that you can say merit another layer of responsible persons? Have the SoS's not proved their virtue? Has not the Burgermeister? Is there any serious 'deadwood' holding up these offices? I don't think so. However, if so, easy fix. Have the Seneschal recommend removal and fresh appointment. It's that easy.

No-one is minding the store.

Tell that to Gluc. Tell that to MPF. Tell that to Istefan Perthonest. Tell that to GV.

Yeah, the stores are doing just fine.

Again, if not, have the PM recommend a removal and fresh appointment of an officer.


But, that's not the argument. That's your, shall we call it, smokescreen? This is about rolling all the non-political royal houses into the remit of the political cabinet. In total. It removes the intentional separation. It further weakens and diminishes what the Monarchy is in this country. The Royal Houses would be nothing but 'Royal in name' after this kind of sweeping change.

[Lüc da Schir]

I must say I am with Eðo on this.

Talossa is peculiar in that it virtually has four branches of government. The Royal Household is actually quite independent and that is definitely an asset rather than an issue. I'm afraid that in my opinion we're far better off leaving it alone.

Also, the Chancery (and the Civil Service) being subjected to the Cabinet sort of defies the purpose of both offices.

[Ian Plätschisch]

Aug 6, 2018 1:22:02 GMT -6 Eðo Grischun said:

It's a really nice big wall of text, so let me just cut it right down to what you're really trying to get passed:

The Commissioner of the Royal Civil Service, responsible to the Seneschál.
The Chancery, headed by the Secretary of State and responsible to the Minister of STUFF.
The Royal Treasury, headed by the Burgermeister of Inland Revenue and responsible to the Minister of Finance.
The College of Arms, headed by the Squirrel King (or Queen) of Arms and responsible to the Minister of Culture.
The Royal Society for the Advancement of Knowledge, headed by the President of the Royal Society and responsible to the Minister of Culture.

Everything else is just the gravy.

With this Bill, the chief members of the Royal Household will be answerable to Ministers of Government. THAT'S THE BILL HERE! The SoS responsible to MinStuff? The College of Arms being folded into MinCult?!?

Your WHEREAS section is wholly disingenuous. It's not really about fixing "needless duplication" and sorting "bugbears". This isn't some minor work of "streamlining", "reform" and "housekeeping" (nice buzzwords, tho), but rather a wholesale selling-off of the Royal House. Another move of Republican Gradualism in an attempt to chip away at the institutions of Monarchy piece by piece.

If the MRPT actually supports you on this then I have absolutely no idea how they can continue calling themselves a Monarchist party while keeping a straight face.

The main point of the bill actually is streamlining, and I think you are overstating the power afforded to the Ministers by the phrase "responsible to"

The Ministers would have no power to hire or fire any of the officers of the Royal Civil Service. By extension, the Ministers have would have no power to set the agenda for any of the Officers of the Royal Civil Service. We decided to organize it this way just so that it would be easier for Ministers to coordinate and collaborate with the Royal Offices that relate to them.

The only power the King is losing here is the power to approve the appointment of the Archivist and the Scribe. However, the King is in fact gaining the power to approve the approve the appointment of the Secretary of State, who in turn appoints the previous two. He also still gets to approve the appointments of all of the other officers.

Yes, we are renaming the Royal Household, but that is clearly not Republican Gradualism or "selling it off wholesale". The name Royal Civil Service just makes the intention of that institution clearer. Apart from what I mentioned above, the King's powers are the same as there were, so how exactly does this bill chip away at the Monarchy?

I still find it funny that the RUMP insists on calling the MRPT fake monarchists despite the tremendous amount of support we showed for the monarchy during the mid-term referendum in the 50th Cosa (especially considering how little campaigning the RUMP did). 

[Ian Plätschisch]

Aug 6, 2018 3:15:55 GMT -6 Eðo Grischun said:

Oversight and involvement on a day-to-day? Virtually none. That's the whole point of these officers. These are offices delegated.

He does, however, hire and fire. The King appoints and dismisses these Officers on the recommendations of others though. You could say his role is quasi-ceremonial in that regard. Isn't that how you actually like it?

In most cases he appoints and dismisses based on the recommendation of the Prime Minister. In one case based on the recommendation of the Senate. In another case based on the recommendation of a committee and the Ziu. In two further instances, the King isn't even involved; The Prime Minister, alone, appoints the SecState and Postmaster.

As I pointed out before, this bill doesn't change that. In fact, the King is actually gaining power to approve the appointments of the Secretary of State and the Burgermeister (and only loses it over the Archivist and the Scribe, who are under the SoS, who the King does appoint).

Should that be? How many layers of 'the bosses bosses boss' do we need? The Officers in charge of these offices are the responsible persons.

Has there been any instances from any these offices that you can say merit another layer of responsible persons? Have the SoS's not proved their virtue? Has not the Burgermeister? Is there any serious 'deadwood' holding up these offices? I don't think so. However, if so, easy fix. Have the Seneschal recommend removal and fresh appointment. It's that easy.
__________________________________________________________________________________________

Tell that to Gluc. Tell that to MPF. Tell that to Istefan Perthonest. Tell that to GV.

Yeah, the stores are doing just fine.

Again, if not, have the PM recommend a removal and fresh appointment of an officer.

No one is saying that any of the current Royal Officers are doing poorly. All of them are doing an excellent job. However, there are big overlaps between some of the Ministries and the Offices of the Royal Household, so it makes sense to acknowledge that in our organization (mind you that the Ministers will not have the power to hire, fire, or enforce an agenda on the officers).

This is about rolling all the non-political royal houses into the remit of the political cabinet. In total. It removes the intentional separation. It further weakens and diminishes what the Monarchy is in this country. The Royal Houses would be nothing but 'Royal in name' after this kind of sweeping change.

No, it isn't about that. Of course, I have just put myself into a Kafka trap:

"This bill will not weaken the power of the Monarchy"
"That is exactly what someone would say if their bill will weaken the power of the Monarchy!"

Yes, the Offices of the Royal Household will be responsible to the Cabinet for the administration of their duties. However, beyond what is in the law (which is all exactly the same as it was before), the Ministers will not be able to prescribe duties to the Officers, only be able to check up on the Offices that have to do with their Ministry. 

The intentional separation is still there (Ministers cannot hire or fire Officers nor force them to do anything; the King will have a hand in appointments larger than he has now).

Still waiting for an explanation of how the bill weakens the Monarchy, or of how the Royal Civil Service will be Royal in name only.

[Ian Plätschisch]

Aug 6, 2018 3:37:42 GMT -6 Lüc da Schir said:

Talossa is peculiar in that it virtually has four branches of government. The Royal Household is actually quite independent and that is definitely an asset rather than an issue. I'm afraid that in my opinion we're far better off leaving it alone.

Also, the Chancery (and the Civil Service) being subjected to the Cabinet sort of defies the purpose of both offices.

Talossa will still have four branches of government (insofar as we have four now); the only difference is that two of them will work more closely than they do now.

The Royal Household is not losing independence; they only person who can appoint Royal Officers is the Commissioner (who in most cases will be less political than the Seneschal, which would actually give the Royal Service more independence rather than less), and the King still gets to approve them.

No subjugation is going on here; Ministers cannot hire or fire officers nor can they prescribe any duties beyond what is in the law (which is exactly what is was before). The proposed organization is about making coordination and collaboration between like government offices easier.

[Ian Plätschisch]

[C. Carlüs Xheraltescù]

Aug 6, 2018 1:22:02 GMT -6 Eðo Grischun said:

It's a really nice big wall of text, so let me just cut it right down to what you're really trying to get passed:

The Commissioner of the Royal Civil Service, responsible to the Seneschál.
The Chancery, headed by the Secretary of State and responsible to the Minister of STUFF.
The Royal Treasury, headed by the Burgermeister of Inland Revenue and responsible to the Minister of Finance.
The College of Arms, headed by the Squirrel King (or Queen) of Arms and responsible to the Minister of Culture.
The Royal Society for the Advancement of Knowledge, headed by the President of the Royal Society and responsible to the Minister of Culture.

Everything else is just the gravy.

With this Bill, the chief members of the Royal Household will be answerable to Ministers of Government. THAT'S THE BILL HERE! The SoS responsible to MinStuff? The College of Arms being folded into MinCult?!?

Your WHEREAS section is wholly disingenuous. It's not really about fixing "needless duplication" and sorting "bugbears". This isn't some minor work of "streamlining", "reform" and "housekeeping" (nice buzzwords, tho), but rather a wholesale selling-off of the Royal House. Another move of Republican Gradualism in an attempt to chip away at the institutions of Monarchy piece by piece.

If the MRPT actually supports you on this then I have absolutely no idea how they can continue calling themselves a Monarchist party while keeping a straight face.

This is exactly how it works in the UK (that beacon of republicanism), Eðo Grischun , all civil servants, no matter how far removed, are answerable or are responsible to a government minister. That doesn’t mean they are hired or fired by said minister, and it doesn’t mean they have to adhere to the minister’s every whim. At the end of the day though, a representative of HM’s government as elected by the people of (in my example the UK) takes responsibility for the actions of those civil servants under their remit. You might disagree with whether that is a good thing, but I think it’s somewhat unfair to respond as though this is some unseemly, hitherto unheard of state of affairs.

[Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN]

Aug 6, 2018 9:39:27 GMT -6 C. Carlüs Xheraltescù said:

This is exactly how it works in the UK (that beacon of republicanism), Eðo Grischun , all civil servants, no matter how far removed, are answerable or are responsible to a government minister. That doesn’t mean they are hired or fired by said minister, and it doesn’t mean they have to adhere to the minister’s every whim. At the end of the day though, a representative of HM’s government as elected by the people of (in my example the UK) takes responsibility for the actions of those civil servants under their remit. You might disagree with whether that is a good thing, but I think it’s somewhat unfair to respond as though this is some unseemly, hitherto unheard of state of affairs.

We've had many pieces of evidence that several "defenders of the monarchy" here don't how things work in real constitutional monarchies. In fact, what they are is "defenders of the status quo" - whether the status quo is working or not.

In no country is a civil service which operates completely free of the elected government an actual "thing". In an actual absolute monarchist state, the King or appointees would actually conduct day to day oversight of these organisations. Having a civil service which operates "on its own recognisance" - with neither King nor elected Government keeping an eye on it, as Lüc da Schir says an unelected fourth branch of government - is a bug, not a feature.

[Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN]

I would like to suggest that "Republican-baiting" is Talossa's equivalent of "red-baiting" or "terrorist-baiting" in other countries. As in America, it is effective politics to yell COMMUNISM or SHARI`A LAW at anything to the left of Jenghis Khan, it is often effective politics in Talossa to yell "REPUBLICAN PLOT AGAINST THE MONARCHY" at the mildest reform to the Constitutional or legal status quo; we can see this in the efforts by RUMP-align figures over the last two or more years to derail any attempts to change anything fundamental about how Talossa's government operates.

The goal of the founding of the Free Democrats of Talossa was to put an end to "Republican-baiting" by allying the Republicans of the ZRT with Liberals who simply wanted better, more accountable government. And a coalition government combining that party with the explicitly-monarchist Moderate Radicals is still getting smeared as "Republicanism by stealth".

Simply put, for some members of the RUMP, anything that they don't like, or even they didn't think of themselves, is smeared as creeping Republicanism. This kind of reactionary, slogan-first politics is the basis of the continuing distrust and poison in Talossan political life.

[Glüc da Dhi]

According to wikipedia

-In the US, the FEC is an independent body, not responsible to any department. Members are appointed by the President and need to be confirmed by the Senate.

-In the UK, the Electoral Commission is an independent body, responsible to parliament, not any department.

-In New Zealand The Electoral Commission is an independent Crown entity. The responsible Minister may not direct the Commission to give effect to, or have regard to, government policy. The Governor-General appoints and removes Electoral Commissioners on the recommendation of the House of Representatives. The Electoral Commission has a statutory duty to act independently in performing its statutory duties and functions and exercising its powers The Electoral Commission may provide information and advice to the Minister of Justice or the House of Representatives at any time and of its own volition.

- In the Netherlands de Kiesraad is an independent body, not responsible to any departments. Members are appointed by the King on the advise of the government.

- In France, elections are supervised by the constitutional council. This is quite a complicated institution which essentially is part of the judicial branch. The Council is made up of former Presidents of the Republic who have chosen to sit in the Council (which they may not do if they become directly involved in politics again), and nine other members who serve non-renewable terms of nine years, one third of whom are appointed every three years, three each by the President of the Republic, the President of the National Assembly, and the President of the Senate. The President of the Constitutional Council is selected by the President of the Republic.

I did not cherrypick. These were the first five I looked up.

[Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN]

... you just named one body which is responsible directly to the elected President, two more responsible to the elected Parliament, one which explicitly has a responsible minister (who is barred from infringing on its independence in certain ways) and another which is part of the judicial branch - not elected, but not "stand alone" either.

This seems to be a line of argument relevant only to the body responsible for elections, by which I assume you're hoping to refer to the Chancery. But the Chancery does much more in this country than simply running the elections. If you want a stand-alone Talossan Elections Commission, separated from the Chancery, responsible to the Ziu, that might be good.

Alternatively, if you want something in the current bill which says "the responsible minister cannot order the Officers/secretary to do their will in these regards", then that might be good as well.

[Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN]

It just took me 1 minute to create an alternative draft which excludes the Chancery from the Royal Civil Service, but includes the Scribery and the Royal Archives as responsible to the Minister of STUFF. Would that make anyone here happier?