Üc R. Tärfâ
Talossan since 3-8-2005
Deputy Fiôván Secretary of State
Posts: 760
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Post by Üc R. Tärfâ on Feb 28, 2016 16:31:12 GMT -6
What ambiguity? The OrgLaw says the Ziu can establish what "absent" or "inactive" means. OrgLaw says "may". And as the Ziu didn't legiferate on this matter, the Government can make assumptions for its operation.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Feb 28, 2016 16:35:49 GMT -6
"The Distain shall act in place of the Seneschal in the event of the latter's... absence ... until a new Seneschal shall be appointed." Don't see any ambiguity. You have taken the place of the Seneschal until a new one is appointed.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Feb 28, 2016 16:38:14 GMT -6
a happenstance where the Distain orders 'XYZ', then the Seneschal pops back up and says 'um, no, I want ABC'. Which order stands? Honestly? The Seneschál, not the Distáin. The key words in OrgLaw XII:8 are "act in place of". Not REPLACE. I am exercising one urgent part of Charlie's job. I couldn't actually become Seneschál unless his Majesty said so. Therefore, the provisions of XII.8 are for a temporary replacement of the Seneschál, not a permanent one. If Charlie comes back he is totally entitled to roll back anything I did "acting in his place", and you can have that on a certificate if you like.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Feb 28, 2016 16:39:10 GMT -6
Great memeage, AD.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Feb 28, 2016 16:50:46 GMT -6
Generalissimo, any chance you could start doing some of the other things that the Seneschal hasn't done, now that you've seized power? For example, the law required him to meet with the SoS and present an action plan to the Ziu to assure that Telecomuna would be implemented on time (this time around).
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Lüc da Schir
Senator for Benito
If Italy wins a Six Nations match I will join the Zouaves
Posts: 4,125
Talossan Since: 3-21-2012
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Post by Lüc da Schir on Feb 28, 2016 16:54:12 GMT -6
Well, he *does* have quite a track record on opposition cartoons.
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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on Feb 28, 2016 16:55:53 GMT -6
Am I reading this correctly that Sir Alexandreu Davinescu, and Senator Éovart Grischün would have the Distain do nothing except when the Seneschal is permanently absent, or dead, or specifically instructs the Distain with every single task one by one?*
The Distain (“Deputy Prime Minister”) has the function of a secretary for the Seneschal. If the Organic Law did not want the Distain to be proactive in the interest and on behalf of the Seneschal, then the Distain would not be specifically mentioned.
If the Distain were to be just a subordinate to be bossed around, then why create the position of Distain? No, the Distain is, as also stated in the Organic Law, a deputy, and, as such, has the right to act as he or she wishes, and we must believe that he or she acts in good faith, following the Seneschal's intentions — until and unless a Seneschal declares that a specific Distain went rogue.
*Absence is something reversible, by the way. And, as Glüc said, absence is rarely announced in Talossa.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Feb 28, 2016 16:56:43 GMT -6
Hey now that's
THE DEPARTMENT OF CULTURAL PURITY HAS DETERMINED THAT THIS POST DID NOT REFLECT THE PROPER ATTITUDE FOR A CITIZEN IN THE GLORIOUS NEW TALOSSA. IT HAS BEEN ALTERED ACCORDINGLY.
I agree honoured sir and believe that our great general will solve all problems now that she has taken charge in our nation's time of need.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Feb 28, 2016 16:58:07 GMT -6
Am I reading this correctly that Sir Alexandreu Davinescu, and Senator Éovart Grischün would have the Distain do nothing except when the Seneschal is absent, or dead, or specifically instructs the Distain with every single task one by one? The Distain (“Deputy Prime Minister”) has the function of a secretary for the Seneschal. If the Organic Law did not want the Distain to be proactive in the interest and on behalf of the Seneschal, then the Distain would not be specifically mentioned. If the Distain were to be just a subordinate to be bossed around, then why create the position of Distain? No, the Distain is, as also stated in the Organic Law, a deputy, and, as such, has the right to act as he or she wishes, and we must believe that he or she acts in good faith, following the Seneschal's intentions — until and unless a Seneschal declares that a specific Distain went rogue. No, the Distain can do all kinds of stuff, but they can't start appointing people to the Cabinet or creating laws. Those are powers that reside in the Seneschal, unless the Seneschal is absent or incapacitated. If the Seneschal is absent or incapacitated, the OrgLaw clearly says that the Distain can take over until a new Seneschal is appointed. Pretty simple and easy.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Feb 28, 2016 17:02:22 GMT -6
Got a legal citation for this interesting division of the Seneschál's responsibilities? I can't find any warrant for it in OrgLaw XII.8.
I will take this grubby trolling at face value and say: I keep saying that I feel I only have a warrant to carry out urgent matters acting in Charlie's place. I'm not convinced that this is urgent. However, since you asked so nicely, I will have informal talks with the SoS on FB and see what he thinks.
Now, to gulag with you.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Feb 28, 2016 17:05:43 GMT -6
The SoS replied immediately to tell me he was in the bath, so unavailable to make plans right now. I'll ask again tomorrow if Charlie's not back.
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Post by Eðo Grischun on Feb 28, 2016 17:07:32 GMT -6
Am I reading this correctly that Sir Alexandreu Davinescu, and Senator Éovart Grischün would have the Distain do nothing except when the Seneschal is permanently absent, or dead, or specifically instructs the Distain with every single task one by one?* The Distain (“Deputy Prime Minister”) has the function of a secretary for the Seneschal. If the Organic Law did not want the Distain to be proactive in the interest and on behalf of the Seneschal, then the Distain would not be specifically mentioned. If the Distain were to be just a subordinate to be bossed around, then why create the position of Distain? No, the Distain is, as also stated in the Organic Law, a deputy, and, as such, has the right to act as he or she wishes, and we must believe that he or she acts in good faith, following the Seneschal's intentions — until and unless a Seneschal declares that a specific Distain went rogue. *Absence is something reversible, by the way. And, as Glüc said, absence is rarely announced in Talossa. Why create the position of Vice President of the USA? The VP isn't there to be just bossed around nor can he just take it upon himself to take over the functions of his superior's office. The VP usually has his own minor portfolio to keep him busy, but the real function of the VP is to be "President-in-waiting in case shit hits the fan". I've always seen the Distain position the same way.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Feb 28, 2016 17:08:40 GMT -6
Got a legal citation for this interesting division of the Seneschál's responsibilities? I can't find any warrant for it in OrgLaw XII.8. Lex.D.2.2: The Distain, who shall serve in the Prime Ministry as deputy to the Seneschal, and shall perform such duties as are delegated to him by the Seneschal. You can do anything the Seneschal delegates you to do. That can be a ton of stuff! Org.XI.4 The Seneschal has State duties. He may advise the King to dissolve the Cosa and to appoint and remove members of the Cabinet. His advice to the King on these matters may not be refused. The Seneschal may issues Speeches to the Nation in writing, declare war pending the approval of the Cosa, write treaties pending the approval of the Cosa, expedite the Ziu's consideration of legislation, and issue Prime Dictates. The Seneschal has these specific powers from the OrgLaw, which are granted explicitly to them alone. And of course, if the Seneschal can't do the job any more for whatever reason, the Distain may take control "until a new Seneschal shall be appointed." This is all completely legal if you've decided to seize control of the Seneschalsqab because the current office-holder was unable to do the job due to absence. Now we would ordinarily have a new one appointed, but probably it's best to just wait for the election. So if that's the case, fine and dandy. CCX is out as Seneschal, and you're acting Seneschal until the election is over.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Feb 28, 2016 17:13:56 GMT -6
Nice attempted avoidance of the precise wording of the law: Does not mean "take over from". Means "carry out the duties of". An acting, temporary replacement. You can try telling Charlie when he gets back that when he snoozes, he loses, but it seems, again, like grubby trolling.
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Post by Eðo Grischun on Feb 28, 2016 17:21:28 GMT -6
How does the wording "act in place of" differ in meaning from 'become ACTING Seneschal'
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