Proclamation of Amendments

[Eðo Grischun]

Jun 3, 2015 15:32:38 GMT -6 Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN said:

No other constitution in the world has provisions which they don't explain to ordinary people. Every other constitution in the world has an honest explanation of how it works in legal language.

The Eðo I knew before he joined the RUMP would have never thought that clever lawyers straining new interpretations which were unknown to the public was a good thing. Do they give you an ethics-ectomy when you join?

Actual LOL.

The thing is, it's not a NEW interpretation. The wording has been there since it was written. You seem to be crying 'murder, Polis' at something you think was a secret when it was there all along. You didn't take the time to read what is arguably the most important line in the Organic Law.

I don't buy your whole "if I was told about this then Reunision would not have happened" routine either. The Miestra I know would never, ever, ever have just took the word of the old Kingdom ruling regime at face value. I find it hard to fathom that not one of the Reviensadiers took a read at the Organic Law before Reunision.

It's all by the by. We do actually agree that it's a provision that requires to be changed. If the King refuses to let go of this veto power, I will be standing alongside you in whatever comes next.

[C. Carlüs Xheraltescù]

Calling for stricter limits on what the King can do does not violate the principles of a constitutional monarchy - calling to fix this problem would arguably strengthen the position of the constitutional monarchy whilst addressing the absolutist streak. Failing to fix it is far more likely to stoke the fires of republican sentiment, thus weakening the monarchy.

[Sir Alexandreu Davinescu]

Indeed. It definitely needs to be fixed.

[Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN]

Jun 3, 2015 16:13:44 GMT -6 Eðo Grischun said:

I don't buy your whole "if I was told about this then Reunision would not have happened" routine either. The Miestra I know would never, ever, ever have just took the word of the old Kingdom ruling regime at face value. I find it hard to fathom that not one of the Reviensadiers took a read at the Organic Law before Reunision.

One of the most reprehensible people in Talossan history, Ronált Rosáis, once said to me: "Talossa is a game, I play to win." Similarly, one of the biggest objections raised by old Republicans to Reunision was: "you can't trust the Kingdom ruling class because they're Diplomacy players who really don't want what's best for Talossa, they just want to win". I personally thought the risk of being "had" was worth it, and I still feel that.

You're admitting that you knew, you gave no public hint that you knew, and that you don't see anything wrong with that. And you think you've won, and you're surprised and a bit contemptuous I wasn't more suspicious and paranoid, that I took the explanations of the OrgLaw on faith. As did every single other person who voted on 47RZ28. No-one canvassed the possibility of a Royal thumbs-down. No-one. (I don't believe any of you actually knew this was going to happen until this morning; you just want to back John because your player-character in this game is "monarchist".)

Well, guess what. Talossa is not a game, which means:

1) to treat your fellow citizens like this means that you are reprehensible.
2) you and your King don't say what the law means finally. The Uppermost Cort does. And you will note that the Scribery of Abbavilla doesn't agree with you either. You don't win yet.

[Sir Alexandreu Davinescu]

Talossa is not a game, but how can we possibly know the depths of anyone's ignorance?

I didn't honestly ever consider this possibility, myself. But I am not appalled that His Majesty read this section of the law more closely than I did. I regret I didn't catch this and propose a compromise solution earlier, but I don't particularly blame anyone for that failure... how were they to know what I hadn't noticed?

Legislating means understanding and writing laws. If I don't understand something, I don't blame anyone else for not taking me by the hand and explaining it.

[Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN]

Hear ye, everyone who voted PËR on 47RZ28: the RUMP chuckles at taking advantage of your ignorance.

[King John]

One day almost half a century ago, I was playing chess and had occasion to capture my opponent's pawn en passant. He was outraged that I hadn't warned him about the possibility that his attacking pawn could be taken that way. For my part, I was sort of appalled that he played chess without knowing the rules. As I remember, he got mad and left when I refused to take my move back.

No, Talossa's no game, but practical politics *does* have elements in common with games. Like, for instance, rules.

— John R

[C. Carlüs Xheraltescù]

The difficulty is in the interpretation of the rules of the game, isn't it? Some people, myself included, see it a little differently. That's why greater clarity in this section of the Organic Law is overwhelmingly needed.

EDIT: to clarify, what I'm saying is that this is less about people not knowing the rules of the 'game', and more about people interpreting them differently and thus overlooking the possible problems that might arise from a lack of conceptual clarity. I don't think we need to go down the route of being appalled at someone's differing interpretation. Let's just fix it.

[Sir C. M. Siervicül]

Jun 3, 2015 16:31:27 GMT -6 Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN said:

Similarly, one of the biggest objections raised by old Republicans to Reunision was: "you can't trust the Kingdom ruling class because they're Diplomacy players who really don't want what's best for Talossa, they just want to win".

I thought that was in the post-abdication version of Ár Päts.

Jun 3, 2015 16:31:27 GMT -6 Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN said:

I don't believe any of you actually knew this was going to happen until this morning

Well, I sure hope you don't believe that. We've been telling you over and over that we didn't know it was going to happen.

[Glüc da Dhi]

Jun 3, 2015 16:31:27 GMT -6 Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN said:

Jun 3, 2015 16:13:44 GMT -6 Eðo Grischun said:

I don't buy your whole "if I was told about this then Reunision would not have happened" routine either. The Miestra I know would never, ever, ever have just took the word of the old Kingdom ruling regime at face value. I find it hard to fathom that not one of the Reviensadiers took a read at the Organic Law before Reunision.

One of the most reprehensible people in Talossan history, Ronált Rosáis, once said to me: "Talossa is a game, I play to win." Similarly, one of the biggest objections raised by old Republicans to Reunision was: "you can't trust the Kingdom ruling class because they're Diplomacy players who really don't want what's best for Talossa, they just want to win". I personally thought the risk of being "had" was worth it, and I still feel that.

You're admitting that you knew, you gave no public hint that you knew, and that you don't see anything wrong with that. And you think you've won, and you're surprised and a bit contemptuous I wasn't more suspicious and paranoid, that I took the explanations of the OrgLaw on faith. As did every single other person who voted on 47RZ28. No-one canvassed the possibility of a Royal thumbs-down. No-one. (I don't believe any of you actually knew this was going to happen until this morning; you just want to back John because your player-character in this game is "monarchist".)

Well, guess what. Talossa is not a game, which means:

1) to treat your fellow citizens like this means that you are reprehensible.
2) you and your King don't say what the law means finally. The Uppermost Cort does. And you will note that the Scribery of Abbavilla doesn't agree with you either. You don't win yet.

Wow, Etho is one of the few RUMPers to come out and support our proposals for changing this and you give him shit like that. That's just wrong. I know some clauses of the Orglaw and their most likely interpretation that I dont agree with and I sure havent personally warned you about all of them. Apparently he thought people knew about this. Which makes sense coming from the perspective of someone interpreting a law a certain way;to think its common knowledge since its in the Orglaw. I didnt expect this could happen, which is bad enough, but to go and blame everyone who did, thats silly. And the way you are going about this crosses the line.

[C. Carlüs Xheraltescù]

Jun 3, 2015 16:31:27 GMT -6 Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN said:

Jun 3, 2015 16:13:44 GMT -6 Eðo Grischun said:

I don't buy your whole "if I was told about this then Reunision would not have happened" routine either. The Miestra I know would never, ever, ever have just took the word of the old Kingdom ruling regime at face value. I find it hard to fathom that not one of the Reviensadiers took a read at the Organic Law before Reunision.

One of the most reprehensible people in Talossan history, Ronált Rosáis, once said to me: "Talossa is a game, I play to win." Similarly, one of the biggest objections raised by old Republicans to Reunision was: "you can't trust the Kingdom ruling class because they're Diplomacy players who really don't want what's best for Talossa, they just want to win". I personally thought the risk of being "had" was worth it, and I still feel that.

You're admitting that you knew, you gave no public hint that you knew, and that you don't see anything wrong with that. And you think you've won, and you're surprised and a bit contemptuous I wasn't more suspicious and paranoid, that I took the explanations of the OrgLaw on faith. As did every single other person who voted on 47RZ28. No-one canvassed the possibility of a Royal thumbs-down. No-one. (I don't believe any of you actually knew this was going to happen until this morning; you just want to back John because your player-character in this game is "monarchist".)

Well, guess what. Talossa is not a game, which means:

1) to treat your fellow citizens like this means that you are reprehensible.
2) you and your King don't say what the law means finally. The Uppermost Cort does. And you will note that the Scribery of Abbavilla doesn't agree with you either. You don't win yet.

Let's try to calm down a bit and look to build rather than burn bridges. We've identified a problem, now let's seek to fix it. I'm not interested in conspiracy theories as to who knew what and did/did not do anything about it. The blame game is not why I joined Talossa; let's not start dishing friendly fire out.

[King John]

For what it's worth, I told Sir Cresti and Lord Hooligan I was going to do it a very few minutes before I actually did. Kind of a "heads-up, you might want to watch Witt". I didn't ask their advice.

I don't recall all the conversations I've had about Talossan law over the years, but I'm sure I've several times pointed out to people the impossibility of changing the OrgLaw over the King's opposition. I don't recall anyone being shocked or amazed. From the first weeks I was a Talossan (at least, from the first weeks after I'd managed to get King Ben to give me a copy of the Organic Law), I knew we were going to have to go some *other* route to rein in the Bad Monarchy.

— John R

[Eðo Grischun]

Thanks guys. It's ok. I totally understand Miestra's frustration tonight. I'm not taking her last post to heart in any way.

How about we all, myself included, take a deep breath and start to work towards a solution that suits all sides?

[Istefan Perþonest]

I didn't predict this, but, that was in part because when I saw the amendment on my ballot (I admit I've not been following Talossan politics particularly closely in recent times) I had actually assumed that, since the amendment touched on the powers of the King, there had been a (non-public) discussion between the King and Government. After all, even the British monarchy retains, to use the phrasing of Bagehot's The English Constitution, "three rights — the right to be consulted, the right to encourage, the right to warn."

[Eðo Grischun]

Indeed. Queen Elizabeth, by law, can veto any law she dares to. Although, it's a power NEVER used and it would be a terrible idea if she ever did. Instead, she usually alerts the Prime Minister of her disagreements with an Act so he can pull it from vote (de-Clark it) or make amendments based on the Queens recommendation. Behind closed doors, the UK monarch is waaaay more powerful than anyone cares to imagine.