Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă
Puisne (Associate) Justice of the Uppermost Court
Fraichetz dels punts, es non dels mürs
Posts: 4,063
Talossan Since: 9-23-2012
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Post by Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă on Mar 10, 2015 13:15:01 GMT -6
I'm thinking that a good way to get better at Talossan is by translating a text and then tweaking it until it is correct. WIth that, I've done a preliminary translation of The Lord's Prayer. Any suggestions from far more accomplished ladintsch than me would be very appreciated.
Noastra Avvà, qi'st in regipäts del çèu
Sanctificat isch voastra nominada.
Voastra regipäts vas
Voastra pedit afcastás in tzara
Come c'e in çèu
Regalent à'cest ziua noi 'n pà ziuesc
Es perzonent noi els pecs
Come noi perzonevent qe 'n pec contra noi.
Es conduçent non ainciün 'n tentaziun,
Mas deliverent ut da iensa caitivetz.
Per voastras c'e el regipäts,
L'elbaracà, es la gloria,
Schemp. Amén.
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Post by Iustì Carlüs Canun on Mar 10, 2015 15:07:21 GMT -6
Most of the lines are going to be in the subjunctive, actually. "Hallowed be thy name" is expressing a wish that the name be hallowed, not merely saying that it is, so you want Q'estadra sanctificada Tu nómina.
Also, it's a popular misconception that "thou/thee/thy/thine" is formal, since it's used to speak to god, but it's actually informal. It's meant to emphasize that the pray-er has a more personal relationship with the deity.
I can go line-by-line, if you like, but it seems like you'd rather have guidance than just correction, yes?
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Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă
Puisne (Associate) Justice of the Uppermost Court
Fraichetz dels punts, es non dels mürs
Posts: 4,063
Talossan Since: 9-23-2012
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Post by Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă on Mar 10, 2015 15:21:51 GMT -6
Most of the lines are going to be in the subjunctive, actually. "Hallowed be thy name" is expressing a wish that the name be hallowed, not merely saying that it is, so you want Q'estadra sanctificada Tu nómina. Also, it's a popular misconception that "thou/thee/thy/thine" is formal, since it's used to speak to god, but it's actually informal. It's meant to emphasize that the pray-er has a more personal relationship with the deity. I can go line-by-line, if you like, but it seems like you'd rather have guidance than just correction, yes? Yes, guidance is preferred to correction. This is how I will learn. I'll post edits soon.
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Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă
Puisne (Associate) Justice of the Uppermost Court
Fraichetz dels punts, es non dels mürs
Posts: 4,063
Talossan Since: 9-23-2012
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Post by Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă on Mar 10, 2015 15:31:10 GMT -6
Do you mean sanctificadra?
Also, if Q'estadra sanctifcadra Tu nómina is used to translate "Hallowed be thy name", why does sanctifcadra follow q'estradra? (May be hallowed your name) instead of "Sanctificadra q'estrada tu nomina?" Is it because of the order of the original words?
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Post by Françal Ian Lux on Mar 10, 2015 16:45:21 GMT -6
A bit of a side comment here: I find it fascinating how languages compose religious texts/prayers. Most Western languages form their prayers in the subjunctive mood, while a number of Eastern languages form theirs in the declarative-imperative mood
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Post by Iustì Carlüs Canun on Mar 10, 2015 17:26:50 GMT -6
Do you mean sanctificadra? Nope. It's an " estarh + past participle" construction: "that your name be sanctified." The full phrase would be Laßetz qe Tu nómina estadra sanctificada "Let (that) Your name be[subj.] sanctified[feminine, to match nómina]." But Talossan has freer word-order than English, so you can bump the q'estadra sanctificada to the beginning. Kind of. But also just for purposes of poeticalness.
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Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă
Puisne (Associate) Justice of the Uppermost Court
Fraichetz dels punts, es non dels mürs
Posts: 4,063
Talossan Since: 9-23-2012
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Post by Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă on Mar 11, 2015 10:53:12 GMT -6
here is an revised version. Thoughts?
ár Avvà, qi'st in el regipäts del çèu
Q'estadra sanctificada Tû nominá.
Tú el regipäts venadrás
Tú afcastadrás pedit in tzara
Come c'e in el çèu
Regaladrás à'cest ziua noi la pà ziuesc
Es perzonadrás noi els pecs
Come noi perzonent qe el pec contra noi.
Es conduçadrás non ainciün la tentaziun,
Mas deliveradrás ut d'iensa caitivetz.
Per Tú c'e el regipäts,
L'elbaracà, es la gloria,
Schemp. Amén.
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Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial
Batetz las maes, perf. —— Freelance glheþineir (I only accept Worthless Internet Points™ as payment)
Posts: 448
Talossan Since: May 12, 2014
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Post by Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial on Mar 11, 2015 13:26:58 GMT -6
I'd change the "Regaladrás à'cest ziua noi la pà ziuesc"
* The adjectives should adopt the gender of the nouns they describe ( ziuesc --> ziuesca, à’cest --> à’ceasta) * I, as a speaker of Portuguese, tend to use indirect objects with à ("to"); I don't know if it's common practice in Talossan as well * I interpret the phrase "this day" to be equivalent to "today", so I'd use oxhi instead. And the line "Tú el regipäts venadrás" literally means "You the kingdom shall come". "Your kingdom shall come" would be "Tu regipäts venadra". Other than that, I love and support your idea. EDIT: Also, some accents are superfluous or plain wrong; expect that I'll give more details in that regard.
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Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă
Puisne (Associate) Justice of the Uppermost Court
Fraichetz dels punts, es non dels mürs
Posts: 4,063
Talossan Since: 9-23-2012
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Post by Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă on Mar 11, 2015 13:45:49 GMT -6
I'd change the "Regaladrás à'cest ziua noi la pà ziuesc"
* The adjectives should adopt the gender of the nouns they describe ( ziuesc --> ziuesca, à’cest --> à’ceasta) * I, as a speaker of Portuguese, tend to use indirect objects with à ("to"); I don't know if it's common practice in Talossan as well * I interpret the phrase "this day" to be equivalent to "today", so I'd use oxhi instead. And the line "Tú el regipäts venadrás" literally means "You the kingdom shall come". "Your kingdom shall come" would be "Tu regipäts venadra". Other than that, I love and support your idea. EDIT: Also, some accents are superfluous or plain wrong; expect that I'll give more details in that regard. For the line Tu el regipäts venadras I only added the "el" because I'm still unclear on when nouns need articles or not (and still getting used to gender as there is no gender in English). I'm not sure about direct objects vs. indirect objects as I can't find that information and I've misplaced my Guiza :-(.
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Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă
Puisne (Associate) Justice of the Uppermost Court
Fraichetz dels punts, es non dels mürs
Posts: 4,063
Talossan Since: 9-23-2012
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Post by Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă on Mar 11, 2015 14:05:36 GMT -6
ár Avvà, qi'st in el regipäts del çèu
Q'estadra sanctificada Tu nominá.
Tu regipäts venadra
Tu afcastadrás pedit in tzara
Come c'e in çèu
Regaladrás à'ceasta ziua noi la pà ziuesca
Es perzonadrás noi els pecs
Come noi perzonent qe el pec contra noi.
Es conduçadrás non ainciün la tentaziun,
Mas deliveradrás ut d'iensa caitivetz.
Per Tu c'e el regipäts,
L'elbaracà, es la gloria,
Schemp. Amén.
ár Avvà, qi'st in el çèu
Q'estadra sanctificada Tu nominá.
Qe tu regipäts venadra
Tu afcastadrás pedit sür la tzara
Come c'e in el çèu
Regaletz à'ceasta ziua ár la pà ziuesca
Es perzonetz ár pecs
Come noi perzonadrent qe el pec contra noi.
Es conduçetz non ainciün la tentaziun,
Mas deliveretz ut d'iensa caitivetz.
Per Tu c'e el regipäts,
L'elbaracà, es la gloria,
Schemp. Amén.
Note: I'm pleased that my version is in many ways very similar to the one Sir Cresti pointed me to! I only chose The Lord's Prayer (as opposed to the Catholic Our Father) because it was a text I knew by heart and could easily remember what each word meant when translated.
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Post by Iustì Carlüs Canun on Mar 11, 2015 14:32:04 GMT -6
Oops. I said "everything is in the subjunctive," and I should have said that only for "Thy kingdom come" & "thy will be done." The rest are imperative. ("Give us this day... Forgive us... Lead us not... Deliver us...")
"Thy kingdom come" and "thy will be done" need to be in the jussive (qe + subj.).
Also, why do you have "kingdom of heaven"? Just çéu is fine.
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Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă
Puisne (Associate) Justice of the Uppermost Court
Fraichetz dels punts, es non dels mürs
Posts: 4,063
Talossan Since: 9-23-2012
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Post by Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă on Mar 11, 2015 14:34:49 GMT -6
I haven't a clue what you mean by jussive and I just kinda liked saying kingdom of heaven :-)
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Post by Iustì Carlüs Canun on Mar 11, 2015 14:49:13 GMT -6
I haven't a clue what you mean by jussive Jussive is kind of like the English "would that" construction (e.g. "would that I were rich"). It's used kind of like the imperative, but the imperative can't do first or third person. "Let's go" is a jussive construction in English (Talossan equivalent: [laßetz] qe noi venadrent, "[let] that we go.")
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Sir C. M. Siervicül
Posts: 9,636
Talossan Since: 8-13-2005
Knight Since: 7-28-2007
Motto: Nonnisi Deo serviendum
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Post by Sir C. M. Siervicül on Mar 11, 2015 15:11:48 GMT -6
There's an existing translation of the Lord's Prayer at www.kingdomoftalossa.net/index.cgi?lingo=&page=Rosary if you want to look at it for comparison purposes. There are also reference pages discussing the use of the various kinds of pronouns under "Syntax" at Talossan.com. The "Genitive Indication" page under "Syntax" discussed the use of possessive adjectives.
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Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă
Puisne (Associate) Justice of the Uppermost Court
Fraichetz dels punts, es non dels mürs
Posts: 4,063
Talossan Since: 9-23-2012
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Post by Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă on Mar 12, 2015 9:51:35 GMT -6
ár Avvà, qi'st in el çèu
Q'estadra sanctificada Tu nominá.
Qe tu regipäts venadra
Tu afcastadrás pedit sür la tzara
Come c'e in el çèu
Regaletz à'ceasta ziua ár la pà ziuesca
Es perzonetz ár pecs
Come noi perzonadrent qe el pec contra noi.
Es conduçetz non ainciün la tentaziun,
Mas deliveretz ut d'iensa caitivetz.
Per Tu c'e el regipäts,
L'elbaracà, es la gloria,
Schemp. Amén.
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