NO BILL OF ATTAINDER! - an appeal to the incoming Cosâ

[Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN]

A bill of attainder (also known as an act of attainder or writ of attainder) is an act of a legislature declaring a person or group of persons guilty of some crime and punishing them without privilege of a judicial trial.

In Talossa, Bills of Attainder are prohibited by the OrgLaw X,8.

One third of the members of either House of the Ziu are entitled, by the Immigration Law (35RZ22) clause 8, to require E. Börnatfiglheu's citizenship to be approved by the Ziu. If that happens, it will most probably fail, probably in the Senäts but maybe in the Cosâ too.

I believe that, should the Ziu do this, they will be superseding the Uppermost Cort's perogative to try E. Börnatfiglheu on charges including immigration fraud and electoral fraud. They will be usurping the Cort's perogative to - assuming the defendant pleads guilty, which is likely - decide an appropriate sentence, which may not be "permanent exclusion from Talossa". They will be, in fact, deciding that E. Börnatfiglheu is guilty and punishing him, without him actually going to trial. No, confessions outside Cort don't count.

I do not believe that Clause 8 of 35RZ22 was designed to allow bills of attainder against returning citizens with charges hanging over their heads, but to allow the Ziu to scrutinise brand new prospectives with a bad record outside of Talossa. The Ziu should not be in the business of punishing criminals. That is a bill of attainder, and I consider it to be inorganic.

The other issue is that it will politicise immigration. Let this Cosâ and Senäts keep Eiric out; do we really want this to be an election issue next time around? "Vote for this party or Senäts candidate and we'll let ESB in to face justice"? We do not want this to happen either.

I therefore appeal to all members of the Ziu not to legislatively block E. Börnatfiglheu's re-entry to the Kingdom, as in the circumstances it would be tantamount to a Bill of Attainder and thus legally dubious; but instead to vigorously help his prosecution before the Uppermost Cort, as is appropriate.

Thank you.

[Sir Alexandreu Davinescu]

I'm not sure I understand the logic. If the Ziu passes these motions, and then next week passes a bill admitting ESB as a citizen - which is entirely possible, given his talents for persuasion - then how could this be a bill of attainder? He is not convicted of a crime in the motions, and no penalty is imposed, or anything like that, and in such a case he would be a citizen. So what would the bill of attainder have been?

The motion just very reasonably states that if any case called for suspension of the typical rubber-stamp process, this is such a case. Let's not just have two-weeks-and-a-petition... let's actually wait and talk about this, and then vote. This potential immigrant has claimed that he has, in the past, defrauded the country more than a dozen times, and in countless small interactions, but also that this was done out of the original noble purpose of investigating our procedures. That certainly merits serious scrutiny.

I'm sorry, but this argument about a bill of attainder just doesn't hold up.

The incoming government can bring suit against him for his admitted crimes, regardless of whether or not he immigrates. If you demand a trial, then I urge you to suggest a vigorous prosecution or vigorously-negotiated plea bargain to the government of which you will be a part.

[Sir C. M. Siervicül]

I agree with S:reu Davinescu. First, the Ziu declining to pass a bill granting ESB citizenship does not preclude the Uppermost Cort from judging his case, because I think persuasive arguments have been made that there is no barrier to prosecuting former citizens. Second, non-citizens have no right to Talossan citizenship, so declining to grant citizenship to an applicant is not a punishment. If the Ziu had purported to strip ESB of citizenship, that would be a bill of attainder, but he renounced voluntarily.

[Owen Edwards]

I think Cresti's right, though I think the butthurtness occasionally on display, preferring dismissing the issue over allowing due process to have its way, has been most unedifying. The key thing is that the new government present charges against the prospective.

[Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă]

From Wikipedia: "A bill of attainder (also known as an act of attainder or writ of attainder) is an act of a legislature declaring a person or group of persons guilty of some crime and punishing them without privilege of a judicial trial."

From 35RZ22 "Grant of Citizenship shall not be issued until such issuance shall be ordered by an act of the Ziu."

From Wikipedia: "A comparison of apples and oranges occurs when two items or groups of items are compared that cannot be practically compared."