What's the reason they all left?

[El Süsadmin]

All the stuff on talossa.com seems like overblown bunk; as if they just did it in reaction to MN legitimately winning the election. The "take my ball and go home" mentality.

Am I wrong?

[mpf]

This has NOTHING to do with the election.

When I was still in the PC, we were ready for a MN that wins the election with the majority.

As long as Devin was PM, we were 100% ok with it.

Unlike what many have said, especially Ben, the PC didn't try to stay in power at all cost.

Do you seriously thinkg that around 10 very active citizens, some of them having been UC judges, PM, DPM, Wittmeister, etc.. would leave the Kingdom only because they were losing the election

They left for the very same reason I am becoming mostly inactive : disgust agaisnt Ben's actions.

And they are not the first to leave because of him... reread Ar Pats, but remember it was written by BEN.

And I just learned that many of those who left kept watching for the day Ben would be kicked out. As such, they are applying to the republic.


At least, that is what I am told.

[El Süsadmin]

mpf said:

Unlike what many have said, especially Ben, the PC didn't try to stay in power at all cost.

I think the inconsistent "independent vote validation" was kind of extreme. In order for an election to be valid, you can't have some person arbitrarily deciding which votes are valid and which aren't.

Do you seriously thinkg that around 10 very active citizens, some of them having been UC judges, PM, DPM, Wittmeister, etc.. would leave the Kingdom only because they were losing the election

<shrug> who knows. I know that from what I read on witt.talossa, the people that left seemed really hot-headed and irrational.

Reading both sides, reading everything, the whole thing just seems bizarre.

They left for the very same reason I am becoming mostly inactive : disgust agaisnt Ben's actions.

Is it Ben's actions, or is it Ben himself they don't like? I'm not saying Ben never exacerbated a situation, as such is bound to happen in political discourse, but it takes two to tango.

What's truly important is common courtesy and civility-- something that was seriously lacking in the stuff I read on witt.talossa. It's like every debate degenerated into ad-hom attacks and childish BS.

[mpf]

I think the inconsistent "independent vote validation" was kind of extreme. In order for an election to be valid, you can't have some person arbitrarily deciding which votes are valid and which aren't.

See, this is EXACTLY one of the things that disgusted them and me.

Ben keeps repeating that SOME person decides ARBITRARLY if a vote is valid or not.

THIS IS A LIE.

The person is me, SoS, not just SOME person.

And it is nor arbitrarly : I simply confirm votes on the phone. It is simple enough. It is not arbitrarly.

But Ben never let it go.

I know that from what I read on witt.talossa, the people that left seemed really hot-headed and irrational.

Did you read back to Halloween, or just the last few weeks ?

Ben had stopped posting on Wittenberg, and instead focused on spreading his attacks by e-mails.


Is it Ben's actions, or is it Ben himself they don't like?

In my case ( I cannot speak for them ) it is his actions. Several times I told him he acted like an asshole. I don't believe I told him he was an asshole ( I may be mistaken ).


What's truly important is common courtesy and civility-- something that was seriously lacking in the stuff I read on witt.talossa. It's like every debate degenerated into ad-hom attacks and childish BS.


Again Pete, did you read back to Halloween

[ron]

You have some misconceptions that need to be cleared-up.

1. Grubi insulted Ben. Bad manors? YES

2. Ben looked into Grubi's REAL LIFE criminal history (!)and found insubstantial, misdemeanor type things.

3. He then used this information to paint Grubi as a violent criminal...something I initially believed. (Once I found out what was actually in there, I changed my mind in a quick hurry).

4. A botched political agreement (The Holloween Crisis) occurred.

5. An 8 month flame war finally resulted in a Republican secession.

[El Süsadmin]

mpf said:

See, this is EXACTLY one of the things that disgusted them and me.

Ben keeps repeating that SOME person decides ARBITRARLY if a vote is valid or not.

THIS IS A LIE.

It's not a lie. There's no system in place that prevents that person from claiming that a vote was unverifiable, even if properly cast.

I feel that this is a failing in the system itself. If an election is set up properly, and securely, vote validation would be unnecessary.

Again Pete, did you read back to Halloween

Maybe I missed something? <shrug>

[El Süsadmin]

Ron said:

2. Ben looked into Grubi's REAL LIFE criminal history (!)and found insubstantial, misdemeanor type things.

Misdemeanors are not always insubstantial. For example, I know that both Assault and Battery are classified as Misdemeanors.

What was Grubi guilty of, exactly? If it was either misdemeanor Assault or Battery, I'd say Ben's characterization wasn't far off.

Now, was it appropriate to bring something like that up? In a court of law, to establish a person's character, it might be admissible.

Was it appropriate here? Probably not. Is namecalling appropriate? No, it's not.

I think if everybody adhered to a minimum civil standard, crap like this wouldn't happen.

[seahobbit]

It's not a lie. There's no system in place that prevents that person from claiming that a vote was unverifiable, even if properly cast.

I agree, in fact that as been my only problem with those rules, the fact that is leads to more controversy instead of less.

I feel that this is a failing in the system itself. If an election is set up properly, and securely, vote validation would be unnecessary.

I agree completely, this is why we'll have 6 months (until the next election) to set new "permanent" rules for election.

Marc Moisan, C.D.

[Lord Q]

Understand that this was but one idea to come up with a way to ensure a proper election. Had I not informed M-P the day before he had to make the announcement, we could have discussed how to do this efficiently and properly. Instead, M-P was left scrambling to come up with a way he thought would work best. Obviously it could have been better, but I will take full responsibility for the shortcomings of this election.

I have full confidence that M-P has operated and will conclude this election honestly.

PM Castiglha

[ron]

I will not rehash what Grubi has on record. However:

Grubi was NEVER charged with A & B. Ben's claim that Grubi is a convicted, insane, violent criminal has no basis in fact or in law.

This has been verified by me and with various sources within the highest levels of our government.

Bad manors are no reason to libel someone and distort the truth for personal & political gain.

[seahobbit]

Ron said:

I will not rehash what Grubi has on record. However:

Grubi was NEVER charged with A & B. Ben's claim that Grubi is a convicted, insane, violent criminal has no basis in fact or in law.

This has been verified by me and with various sources within the highest levels of our government.

Bad manors are no reason to libel someone and distort the truth for personal & political gain.

There is still an outstanding Cort case on this...

Marc Moisan, C.D.

[IanA]

I will make one short statement, and then disappear.

I am a prospective citizen of the Republic for an extremely simple reason. I was a citizen of the Kingdom for over three years. The last 1.5 of those I was under constant fire from the King, for reasons I do not fully comprehend. We had differing views on many things, but in December 1999 he completely flipped for no reason at all, and after that he started maligning everything I did, casting aspersions on everything I said. I did what I could to avoid him, but he made it very clear that he wanted me hounded out of Talossa. This can be confirmed by JJ, Q, M-PF, and others.

So eventually it was fun no more, and I quit. After a couple of years, January 2003, things seemed to have improved so much that I asked for my citizenship to be restored. It was and I was enthusiastically welcomed on Witt. Then Ben flipped out again, went against the OrgLaw saying basically No, I wasn't, because he said so. Curtain. Nobody dared to defy Ben.

So I'm a citizen of the Republic because the Kingdom let Ben refuse me to be a citizen here. It's that simple. And there are several prospectives over at the republic who are there because Ben blocked their way into Talossa.

This pattern will continue to repeat itself, mark my words.

I hope that the Kingdom will break this rut which has continued since 1998 and has chased away three quarters of all prospectives. I do not hold much hope, but I cross my fingers for you. I have followed what happened in Talossa since Halloween, and I must say I admire the (albeit misguided) patience and statesmanship shown by Q in trying to keep the country together. I think he never had a chance, because he didn't realize how deep the resentment was and how legitimate the complaints were. But he honestly tried, which is more than anyone else of those involved did.

Good luck to the Kingdom!

-Ián Anglatzarâ