The Royal Civil Service (Establishment) Bill

[Ian Plätschisch]

We can (and should) also make this change:

3. The other Officers of the Royal Civil Service shall have no fixed terms of office and shall not be removed from office by the dissolution of the Cosa. The other Officers of the Royal Civil Service are appointed and removed by the King on the recommendation of the Commissioner of the Royal Civil Service.

to;

3. The other Officers of the Royal Civil Service shall have no fixed terms of office and shall not be removed from office by the dissolution of the Cosa. The other Officers of the Royal Civil Service are appointed by the King on the recommendation of the Commissioner of the Royal Civil Service, and removed by the King on the recommendation of the Commissioner of the Royal Service for professional misconduct, inability to perform their duties due to incapacitation or failure to perform their required duties.

[Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN]

Just a note that the main problem with the independent Chancery is - who brings the SoS into line when they drop the ball? For example, no-one was in a position to reprimand the Chancery for taking more than 2 years between censuses, causing a number of citizens to drop off the rolls.

This would again not be a problem if we had a Monarch actively involved in Talossa on a day-to-day basis. I suggest to the staunch Monarchists that you can't have it both ways. Either you have a constitutional monarchy, where it honestly doesn't matter whether the King turns up on a day to day basis; or you have a monarchy with real power, which requires the King to turn up and perform oversight on a day to day basis. Choose, but choose wisely.

[Glüc da Dhi]

Being appointed by the President AND having to be confirmed by parliament is hardly the same as being directly responsible to the President. The SoS in Talossa is appointed by the PM, but still acts independently.

Most (probably all) of those countries have other independent bodies than just the one responsible for elections. That one is just a particularly useful institution to be somewhat independent. Nobody wants the chancery to be without oversight by some democratic institution. That is why the SoS can be removed by law by a democratic institution. But it is good that important institutions are apolitical and not subject directly to the policy of partisan ministers.

There seems to be a lot of confusion about what this bill would mean. The PM has suggested that it would essentially not change anything and all these officers are still as independent as they were. Then why have the law say basically the opposite? What would even be the purpose of this. To ease coordination? How? In what way?

Elsewhere it has been suggested that the purpose is to have royal household officers write reports. Why should the chancery report to the minister of STUFF. Is the most important thing about election results that they are communicated to the person in charge of web maintenance. Should clarks be sent to the minister of STUFF as well? Is more formal reports even what Talossa needs right now? (FWIW, writing a more detailed election report is still on my to do list, but the reasons I havent gotten around to that yet have very little to do with there being no minister of STUFF to report to. I was planning to post it on witt anyway.)

But none of these are really what is in the law. What is in the law is making the chancery responsible to the Ministry of STUFF, which I fear would mean having to follow government policy and turning another non political office into one directly controlled by the political government.

Edit: I obviously started writing this a long time ago, but got distracted (by the shoutbox among other things ) , and now there have been a couple posts in between which I didnt read before posting this.

[Ian Plätschisch]

Aug 6, 2018 15:17:18 GMT -6 Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN said:

Just a note that the main problem with the independent Chancery is - who brings the SoS into line when they drop the ball? For example, no-one was in a position to reprimand the Chancery for taking more than 2 years between censuses, causing a number of citizens to drop off the rolls.

Presuming that the SoS is still in the domain of the Royal Civil Service, they could be still be removed by the Commissioner. In fact, this bill currently would not allow anyone except the CSC to fire the SoS anyway.

[Glüc da Dhi]

Aug 6, 2018 15:09:41 GMT -6 Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN said:

It just took me 1 minute to create an alternative draft which excludes the Chancery from the Royal Civil Service, but includes the Scribery and the Royal Archives as responsible to the Minister of STUFF. Would that make anyone here happier?

Happy? No.
Happier? Yes.

Edit: but then again I don't get to vote on bills anyway so yeah...


(To be honest I was confused by the Scribery and Royal Archives part as well, because I'm understanding from the discussion and the PMs fancy graph that the idea was to put them under the chancery, but I didn't get that from reading the bill. Other than the numbering, nothing in the language seems to indicate it.)

[Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN]

Aug 6, 2018 15:38:57 GMT -6 Glüc da Dhi said:

(To be honest I was confused by the Scribery and Royal Archives part as well, because I'm understanding from the discussion and the PMs fancy graph that the idea was to put them under the chancery, but I didn't get that from reading the bill. Other than the numbering, nothing in the language seems to indicate it.)

That was, indeed, the idea, because I thought they belonged together. But no matter.

Given all of that, here is the latest draft. Note that:
- the Scribery is now responsible to Justice (appropriate, as Justice was originally responsible for the Scribery's job) and Archives are responsible to Interior rather than Stuff.
- I have made it clear about the difference between Officers of the Royal Civil Service (who consult with and report to a particular Minister but cannot be ordered to carry out government policy) and Permanent Secretaries (who carry out government policy but are independent in how they do so).

C. The Royal Civil Service
1. The following offices are henceforth to be styled the Offices of the Royal Civil Service. The head of each such office shall be considered an Officer of the Royal Civil Service, and the duties and functions of the offices shall be those described below, including for each office any similar duties as may be assigned or imposed. Every Office of the Royal Civil Service shall report to and consult with a named Minister of the Government concerning the conduct of their office as and when requested, necessary or useful; but shall not be subject to the direction of that Minister except as required by Organic and statutory law.

1.1. The Commissioner of the Royal Civil Service, reporting to the Seneschál. The function of the Commissioner is to recommend to the King the appointment of Permanent Secretaries within the cabinet ministries, as well as other Officers of the Royal Civil Service and any other non-political appointees as may be appropriate. The Commissioner of the Royal Civil Service shall hold no seat in the Ziu.
1.1.1. The Commissioner may recommend the appointment of permanent secretaries to any ministry based upon their qualifications, willingness to work and taking into consideration the applicant’s performance in prior positions, after consultation with the relevant Minister. All Permanent Secretary positions shall exist within the Royal Civil Service and shall be non-political appointments which shall be held until lawful dismissal, resignation or incapacitation.
1.1.2. Secretaries shall serve as the administrative chief of their respective ministries tasked with the day to day operation of the ministry’s work or for any other special role assigned to them when their position is created. Secretaries shall implement Government policy within the bounds of Organic and statutory law, in the manner in which they deem appropriate.
1.1.3. The Commissioner shall remove from office any secretary for professional misconduct, inability to perform one’s duties due to incapacitation or failure to perform their required duties.
1.1.4. An individual may not hold the offices of Seneschal, Distáin, Justice of the Uppermost Cort, Monarch, or any cabinet portfolio while simultaneously holding an active appointment to a secretary office. In addition, any Secretaries within the Ministry of Justice may not serve as a judge in any inferior court.
1.1.5. Secretaries shall be styled “Honourable” during their tenure.
1.1.6. Secretaries shall be empowered to appoint and dismiss non-political appointees within their ministry with the approval of the Commissioner of the Royal Civil Service and the appropriate Minister. These appointees will retain their offices through changes in government.
1.1.6.1. Section 1.1.6 above shall not be construed to deny Ministers the power to make appointments and dismissals within their Ministry, other than the Secretary and those appointed by them.
1.1.7. Secretaries shall retain their offices through changes of government.
1.1.8. The precise duties, necessary qualifications and expected standards of each secretary shall be determined by law.

1.2. The Scribery of Abbavilla, headed by the Scribe of Abbavilla and reporting to the Minister of Justice. The functions of the Scribery are to maintain and publish the Organic and statutory laws of the Kingdom.
1.2.1. The Scribe of Abbavilla shall maintain all laws in L'Anuntzia dels Legeux, insofar as possible, with the same content that was approved by the Ziu, except that amending acts that refer to section numbers in pre-existing statutes that were changed by the Scribery shall be construed as referring to the equivalent section numbers in the amended statutes as originally enacted.
1.2.2. The Scribe of Abbavilla shall maintain el Lexhatx in accordance with the directions in Title Z. The Scribe shall thus advise all proposers of bills to the Clark on proper formatting of their bills to conform with Title Z.
1.2.3. If the Scribe, or their deputy(s), finds an error in the formatting, grammar, or spelling of a bill which is currently in the Clark, or is alerted of same, they shall work with the sponsor of the bill to fix said error(s).
1.2.4. The Scribe, or their deputy(s), shall publicize any proposed changes to a bill, with the approval of the author. The changes are deemed to have been implemented after they have been public for seven days, unless the changes are disallowed by the conditions of C.1.2.5.
1.2.5. If, before the proposed changes are implemented, a petition of MCs representing at least 1/3 of the seats in the Cosa, or a petition of at least 1/3 of the Senators, goes before the Scribe in protest of the proposed changes to a bill, the changes cannot be implemented.

1.3. The Royal Archives, headed by the Royal Archivist and reporting to the Minister of Interior. The function of the Archives is to preserve and make available the historical artifacts and information of the Kingdom in museums and other venues.
1.3.1. The Royal Archiver be always known throughout the Kingdom of Talossa as Royal Archivist.
1.3.2. No Public Record or Archive under the control of a Governmental body and/or the Royal Civil Service Body shall be destroyed, erased or otherwise disposed of without the written authorisation of the Royal Archivist. This Authorisation or Refusal must be announced on Wittenberg within three days of such Authorisation or Refusal is made. Authorisation or Refusal by the Royal Archivist for the destruction of an Archive may be overturned by a resolution passed by the Ziu.
1.3.3. An Archive/record that has been granted authorisation for disposal may not be disposed until after thirty days after such an authorisation is granted.
1.3.4. Any person who damages or causes to be damaged any Public Archive or Record in the control of a Governmental or Royal Civil Service body; or damages or causes to be damaged any Public Archive in the control of a Private body, Community and/or Individual; or removes, destroys or erases such Public record or archive otherwise than in accordance with this provision or any other law, shall be guilty of a Class A misdemeanour if such damage, removal, destruction, or erasure was wilful, or guilty of a Class C misdemeanour if such damage, removal, destruction, or erasure was reckless.
1.3.5. The Royal Archivist may refuse to allow any person convicted of an offence in terms of these provisions, access to an archives repository for such period as he or she may deem fit, subject to an appeal to the Uppermost Cort.
1.3.6. For the purpose of this provision a Public Record and Archive is hereby defined as: "Public Archive" or "Public Record" means a record/archive created or received by a governmental or Royal Civil Service body in pursuance of its activities."
1.3.7. At the end of each Clark, the Archivist shall post the link provided by the Secretary of State to the Chancery website.

1.4. The Royal Treasury, headed by the Burgermeister of Inland Revenue and reporting to the Minister of Finance. The function of the treasury is to:
1.4.1. collect all revenues due to the King,
1.4.2. maintain and report to the Finance Minister and the Government on the fiduciary health of the Kingdom, at least once in every two calendar months and whenever else requested
1.4.3. disburse from the treasury all funds legitimately appropriated by the Ziu,
1.4.4. keep a record of all changes in the account balances of the Royal Treasury.

1.5. The College of Arms, headed by the Squirrel King (or Queen) of Arms and reporting to the Minister of Culture. The function of the College of Arms is to create and maintain all Talossan flags and coats of arms and achievements, to advise and support the King in the awarding of all such arms and all titles of honour and nobility, to advise the citizens regarding heraldic issues, and to govern the armorial practice and regulations of the Kingdom.

1.6. The Royal Society for the Advancement of Knowledge, headed by the President of the Royal Society and reporting to the Minister of Culture. The function of the Royal Society is to conduct and promote research and academic study in all areas of human endeavour.
1.6.1. Schools may be created within the Society for the purpose of focusing on a specific subject. The exact procedure for establishing a school shall be chosen by the President, who shall also appoint a dean to supervise each school.

1.7. Here so by the Ziu be enacted,
as follows, in verses protracted:
that we do create
a new office of state
to accomplish the purpose abstracted.
El Metrefieir Laureat
shall the office be named, come to that,
and we won't be sorry that
this Poet Laureate
will our Royal Civil Service work at.
PM shall advise, King confirm,
this soul to an indefinite term
of true dedication
to versification
on topics of public concern.
1.7.1. To the Culture Minister shall the Poet Laureate
Give report; it was hard to find a rhyme for that.

2. The Commissioner of the Royal Civil Service shall be appointed by the King, for a two-year renewable term, after being recommended by the Seneschál and approved by a two-thirds majority vote in the Cosa and a majority vote of the Senäts in favour of appointment. The King, with the advice and consent of the Seneschál, may remove from office the Commissioner of the Royal Civil Service for professional misconduct, inability to perform their duties due to incapacitation or failure to perform their required duties.

3. The other Officers of the Royal Civil Service shall have no fixed terms of office and shall not be removed from office by the dissolution of the Cosa. The other Officers of the Royal Civil Service are appointed and removed by the King on the recommendation of the Commissioner of the Royal Civil Service for professional misconduct, inability to perform their duties due to incapacitation or failure to perform their required duties.

4. Any dismissed Officers of the Royal Civil Service or Permanent Secretaries shall be entitled to judicial review of their removal, by bringing complaint before a trial court. The court shall consider if any of the petitioner's rights afforded by law have been violated. The court shall have the authority to order reinstatement where appropriate or dismiss the complaint, thus sustaining the dismissal.

5. Each Officer of the Royal Civil Service is empowered to appoint one or more deputies (with the approval of the Commissioner of the Royal Civil Service) who may act in the place of that officer in all cases. The King and nation shall be informed of all such appointments.

6. Each Officer of the Royal Civil Service is empowered to appoint and dismiss any citizen of Talossa to non-political offices within their branch of the Royal Civil Service – including the heads of those subordinate agencies within their Office described by law, and empowered to organize or reorganize his office in any manner he deems shall best effect its services to the King, with the approval of the Commissioner of the Royal Civil Service, and within the limits set by law. empower any subservient official to make similar appointments and dismissals within any specific agency of the Office of the Royal Civil Service, with the approval of the Commissioner of the Royal Civil Service.


L. Law supplementing Article III of the Organic Law
1. The legal guardian of a minor sovereign shall be one or both of the biological or adopted parents of the said sovereign, providing that at least one of the said parents is a citizen of the Kingdom of Talossa. (36RZ1)
1.1. If a minor sovereign is not the biological or adopted child of a Talossan citizen, the minor sovereign shall be a ward of the State. The wardship of the minor monarch shall be executed jointly by the Ziu and the Cort Pü Înalt, through a unanimous vote of the Cort and a two-thirds vote of each house of the Ziu.
2. Should a Senator be chosen as Regent, the temporary holder of the Senatorial seat shall be named by the Premier of the province for which the appointed Regent serves as Senator. (38PD2)
2.1. Should a member of the Cosa be chosen as Regent, the temporary holder(s) of the Cosa seat(s) shall be named by the leader of the political party which had earned and assigned the said seats in the most recent general election.
2.2. The appointments shall be considered effective upon their being provided to the Chancery to be recorded by His Majesty's Secretary of State.
2.3. Persons appointed to vacated Senatorial seats shall be subject to the terms of Article IV, Section 4 of the Organic Law and to any and all other statutory and Organic provisions respecting the exercise of the rights and privileges of the office of Senator, notwithstanding any contrary eligibility and standing held by the appointed Regent.
2.4. Should either of the persons empowered by this Prime Dictate fail to make the said appointment(s) after a period of seven (7) days, the Regent still-serving shall be empowered to make the said appointment(s).

M. The Chancery
1. The Secretary of State shall head an office independent of the other branches of Government, but responsible to the Ziu, known as the Chancery. The functions of the Chancery are to prepare and submit the Clark, determine and report the passage or failure of each resolution considered by the Ziu, conduct, certify, and report upon all national elections, maintain the census and citizenship list, assist the citizenry in determining Talossan language personal names and registering the same, register political parties, communicate census information to political party leaders, and track and maintain legislative seating assignments/
2. One member of the Chancery shall be the Royal Data Clerk, heading the Office of Dynamic Data Management. The function of the Office of Dynamic Data Management is to manage all computer records owned by the Kingdom of Talossa for its official functions and delegated to its care in order to help other Royal Households, Ministries or any other organization of the Kingdom which needs data management. The Royal Data Clerk may be the same person as the Secretary of State. The Royal Data Clerk shall be considered an Officer of the Royal Household.
2.1. Once the first Royal Data Clerk accepts his position, and once two members of the Cort pu Inalt have confirmed that they are in receipt of full and accessible backups of the database system currently hosted on talossa.ca, this database shall be considered to be the property of the Office of Dynamic Data Management and thus, the property of the Kingdom of Talossa
3. The Bureau of the Census within the Chancery shall conduct a census of all citizens of Talossa, collecting demographic information and updating the Chancery's contact details for the citizenry. A census shall be performed every two calendar years, or more frequently if the Seneschal so requests.
3.1. The only required questions for any respondent on the Talossan Census shall be (a) current Talossan and non-Talossan names, and (b) citizen contact details (preferably email). The Chancery will provide an option for respondents to share their email address with party leaders, pursuant to Lex.D.8.5.4.
3.2. Other questions on the Talossan Census shall be identical to the questions on the last census. These questions may be changed by the Chancery, either of its own volition or on request from the Seneschal, but any changes shall be approved by the Ziu. These questions will be marked as optional, and at no time shall a citizen be forced or required to respond to an optional question.
3.3. Any information collected during the census that would individually identify any person or persons, including their contact information, shall be withheld from the public for to protect individual privacy, consistent with Lex.D.8. The only exception is that citizens may opt to have their e-mail address shared with party leaders, pursuant to Lex.D.8.5.4. Census information shall not be released under any "freedom of information" or "government transparency" requests, notwithstanding any other provisions of el Lexhatx.
3.4. Demographic information and other information that does not identify the respondents shall be made available within thirty (30) days of the conclusion of any census.
4. Members of the Chancery are to be considered as if they were Deputy Secretary of State, without the ability to replace the Secretary should he become unavailable. Members may act in the name of the Secretary of State and perform official business as delegated to them by the Secretary. Once the requirements of M.2.1 above have been fulfilled, at least three members of the Chancery at any time shall have all the access required to carry out the Chancery's functions under this section.
5. The Secretary of State shall hold no seat in the Ziu.

[Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN]

Aug 6, 2018 15:36:09 GMT -6 Ian Plätschisch said:

Presuming that the SoS is still in the domain of the Royal Civil Service, they could be still be removed by the Commissioner. In fact, this bill currently would not allow anyone except the CSC to fire the SoS anyway.

Which is precisely what Glüc wanted me to amend the bill to remove. Would restoring the Chancery to the Royal Civil Service be acceptable - given the new language which specifies "reporting to" rather than "responsible to" the Ministers and not responsible for carrying out govt policy - if the SoS reports directly to the Seneschál?

What has frustrated me was Glüc going off both here and in the Shoutbox based on what was plainly a problem with unclear wording in the bill, thinking it meant something completely different to what it meant. The latest wording, I think, is much clearer.

[Ian Plätschisch]

Picky edits (not touching the Chancery for the moment):

1. The following offices are henceforth to be styled the Offices of the Royal Civil Service. The head of each such office shall be considered an Officer of the Royal Civil Service, and the duties and functions of the offices shall be those described below, including for each office any similar duties as may be assigned or imposed by the Commissioner of the Royal Civil Service. Every Office of the Royal Civil Service shall report to and consult with a named Minister of the Government concerning the conduct of their office as and when requested, necessary or useful; but shall not be subject to the direction of that Minister except as required by Organic and statutory law.

Reason; who can assign or impose additional duties?

1.1.1. The Commissioner may recommend the appointment of permanent secretaries to any ministry based upon their qualifications, willingness to work and taking into consideration the applicant’s performance in prior positions, with the approval of the relevant Minister. All Permanent Secretary positions shall exist within the Royal Civil Service and shall be non-political appointments which shall be held until lawful dismissal, resignation or incapacitation.

Reason; "consulting" with the Minister is too vague

1.1.2. Secretaries shall serve as the administrative chief of their respective ministries tasked with the day to day operation of the ministry’s work, and/or serve any special role(s) assigned to them when their position is created. Secretaries shall implement Government policy within the bounds of Organic and statutory law, in the manner in which they deem appropriate.

Reason; clarifies that not all Secretaries must be the administrative chief of an entire Ministry

1.1.6. Secretaries shall be empowered to appoint and dismiss non-political appointees within their mandate with the approval of the Commissioner of the Royal Civil Service and the appropriate Minister. These appointees will retain their offices through changes in government.

1.1.6.1. Section 1.1.6 above shall not be construed to deny Ministers the power to make appointments and dismissals within their Ministry, other than the Secretary and those appointed by them.

Reason; this wording was included in the original draft but must have been forgotten at some point.

1.1.8. The precise duties, necessary qualifications and expected standards of each secretary shall be determined by law.

Reason; Why can't the CSC and the relevant Minister figure this out themselves?

3. The other Officers of the Royal Civil Service shall have no fixed terms of office and shall not be removed from office by the dissolution of the Cosa. The other Officers of the Royal Civil Service are appointed by the King on the recommendation of the Commissioner of the Royal Civil Service, and removed by the King on the recommendation of the Commissioner of the Royal Civil Service for professional misconduct, inability to perform their duties due to incapacitation or failure to perform their required duties.

Reason; fixed the wording

[Ian Plätschisch]

Also, as I can find nowhere else to put the two remaining sections of the proposed Title L, you may as well put current sections C.6 and C.7 back into it.

[Ian Plätschisch]

Assuming we put the Chancery back in the realm of the Royal Civil Service, but do not require the SoS to report to any Minister, here is how the chart would look:

[Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN]

If we take the Chancery out of the Civil Service, we would have to add a line explaining how the SoS is appointed - something like "in the same way as Officers of the R.Civ.Serv".

I would prefer the Chancery to remain in the Civil Service with the SoS reporting to the Seneschál, but the other option is fine too. I just need to know which has more support from MZs; I don't need to hear from people who won't support the reorganization either way.

[Ian Plätschisch]

Aug 7, 2018 19:16:24 GMT -6 Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN said:

I would prefer the Chancery to remain in the Civil Service with the SoS reporting to the Seneschál, but the other option is fine too. I just need to know which has more support from MZs; I don't need to hear from people who won't support the reorganization either way.

We could instead have the SoS report to the Commissioner.

[Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN]

Aug 7, 2018 19:23:05 GMT -6 Ian Plätschisch said:

We could instead have the SoS report to the Commissioner.

... or to the Túischac'h and Mençéi, as representative of the Ziu?

[Sir C. M. Siervicül]

I agree with a lot of what this bill does. I think it makes sense to bring much of the royal household under the civil service. I would leave the College of Arms out as it is the one office with a function that is essentially personal to the monarch. In the UK, for example, the College of Arms is also part of the royal household. I've long thought the Scribery should be folded into the Chancery, as the maintenance of l'Anuntzia is basically an extension of the Clark process.

One thing that concerns me is how it concentrates so much responsibility in a single office--the civil service commissioner--which is essentially unproven. It makes this one office a single point of failure for much of our system, especially if the appointment of the SoS depends on the CSC and the administration of elections and the legislative process depends on the SoS. I'm also not sure I like the elimination of the civil service committee or the provision for a civil service administrative code.

[Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN]

Aug 7, 2018 22:08:18 GMT -6 Sir C. M. Siervicül said:

I'm also not sure I like the elimination of the civil service committee or the provision for a civil service administrative code.

Basically, these latter have proved cumbersome and have already not worked as advertised. I don't see what they offer that can't be established by ordinary law, or even by informal ministerial guidance as some others have suggested.

The question of the power of the CSC is an interesting one - Ian Plätschisch was responsible for a lot of the ideas for beefing the office up, so I should let him comment.