Something to discuss.

[Glüc da Dhi]

I wanted to make a lenghty post about this, but I don't really have the time. This is something I've been sort of supporting for a long time without putting too much effort into it, though, and it seemed appropriate now, because I notice in a lot of the debates people (including myself) have been mixing up arguments related to government and to the Ziu.

It's very much possible that someone believes party A is the closest to him/her ideologically, but party B has the best people to run the country. However, we cannot separate the two. Someone might for example buy the FreeDems arguments that a cabinet led by citaxhien Miestra would be good for Talossa, but prefer a party that does take a stance on whether Talossa should become a republic or stay a monarchy. Or someone might for example like the MRPT's plans for democratic reform, but not think the MRPT is currently the best party to lead the government. Currently, that means you are just unlucky.

Another problem: you vote for example TNC, but they dont get a majority, so they will be part of a coalition. They might have to choose, RUMP, FreeDem, some other combination. What do they pick? Either way, you didn't vote for that.

Solution: Elect a PM. They can focus on assembling the best people to lead a government. To avoid candidates who are too similar splitting the vote of a certain group, or having a PM be elected by only a tiny minority, or people voting tactical en masse for a candidate they dont prefer, some form of Ranked voting should probably be used. The Ziu can focus on ideological, so parties can discuss the actual issues. Yeah, the Ziu should probably still vote on a VoC, but I think the incentive for parties to send home a democratically elected PM and annoy the voters with new elections will be much less strong than they are now.

Discuss...

[Sir Alexandreu Davinescu]

When I imagine an independent executive -- a presidency -- in the country, I believe it would tend to build up individuals with their own substantial power base independent of any political beliefs, on the basis of their competence and ability. This would then paper over the actual political decisions inherent in that person's actions, even if they were just acting on the status quo. This isn't a problem in a lot of places, but Talossa has a long history of these sorts of figures who co-opt the center.

There is definitely a trade-off involved with lumping together executive ability and political positions into a single vote, don't get me wrong. We lose the ability to elect a hyper-competent executive. But given the dangers, I think we want to be really careful about empowering a strong independent executive.

[Glüc da Dhi]

I'm sorry, maybe Im just a bit tired, but I sort of lost you there. Co-opt the center? Can you give an example of what you mean? (For the record, Im not suggesting transferring additional powers from the Ziu to the PM or removing the VoC )

[Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN]

They tried a directly elected PM in Israel for a while. It didn't work for whatever reason. Of course the old Republic had that separation with the semi-Presidential system. Some have suggested that a compromise on the constitutional issue could be a fully symbolic monarch (or empty throne) and a directly-elected Regent or State President fulfilling the political functions of the monarchy, working in tandem with the Seneschál and Cabinet. In fact, I think KR1 suggested that in the early 90s but the Left shot it down for whatever reason.

This is the kind of thing you should REALLY write up and present as a formal proposal to the Royal Commission!

[Glüc da Dhi]

I'm not in the commission though. Can't really discuss it there or convince a Ziu majority to support it without arguing the case outside the commission.
I'll drop a link in the suggestion box though.

[Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN]

It doesn't matter if a Ziu majority support any constitutional changes... until we remove the King's autocratic power.

[Iustì Tíçhern Corneir]

As a dual-citizen in a land with an independently elected Executive, let me tell you it doesnt fucking work here. My fantasy conception of Parliamentary democracy is that it's better at getting people together and actually getting things done. When you're in power in a PD, you can govern. Here in the US, when you have the White House but not the Congress, all you can think to do is spend your time killing people in other countries.

[Marti-Pair Furxheir S.H.]

Here is my personal idea:

Once the election is over and Cosa Seats are assigned, each Cosa member uses a ranked ballot to pick who they think the prime-minister should be, from all of the party leaders.

The votes remain secret and locked in, until all have voted. Then, we reveal the election.

If might be that in a 3 party election, both main parties have 80 seats and the third party has the remaining 40.

But both parties put the third party in second place, so that leader becomes PM and is then encouraged to make a wide coalition.

But here is the kicker: I propose a full weighted ballot, until we have 100 votes out of 200.

Each 1st rank seat would give 1 vote.
Each 2nd rank seat would give 1/2 a vote
Each 3rd rank sear would give 1/3 of a vote.

So, if all party members vote for their party, it's 200 votes split:

80 : Party A
80 : Party B
40 : Party C

But the second rank are as follows:

Party A 2nd ranks: 80/2 votes to Party C
Party B 2nd ranks: 80/2 votes to Party C
Party C 2nd ranks: 40/2 votes to Party B

We now have:

80 + 0 = 80 for Party A
80 + 20: 100 for Party B
40 + 20 + 20 : 80 for Party C

This means that now, we have Party B in the lead and they have the PM.

[Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun]

Here is a radical thought:

Why should the Prime Ministry only be applicable unto Party Leaders? Why can't we think of other Members of the Cosă — or even an independent non-Ziu member?

[Marti-Pair Furxheir S.H.]

Jan 19, 2016 16:48:31 GMT -6 Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun said:

Here is a radical thought:

Why should the Prime Ministry only be applicable unto Party Leaders? Why can't we think of other Members of the Cosă — or even an independent non-Ziu member?

Very, very good point!

[Breneir Itravilatx]

Jan 19, 2016 16:48:31 GMT -6 Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun said:

Here is a radical thought:

Why should the Prime Ministry only be applicable unto Party Leaders? Why can't we think of other Members of the Cosă — or even an independent non-Ziu member?

I thought it was by convention within parliamentary systems that the leader of the largest party or coalition gaining the largest support within a legislative body becomes or is appointed Prime Minister. Usually when this convention is not followed it is either during emergencies such as wartime or grand coalitions necessitated by high levels of interparty strife.

[Sir Alexandreu Davinescu]

But there is no real reason why a party needs to choose its party leader as Seneschal candidate. In Talossa, it's often just that the most active and driven person is most likely to want to do it and be able to do it. Organizing a political party and running a campaign shows at least some of that ability.

I would be hugely open to alternative scenarios and candidates.

[Breneir Itravilatx]

Jan 19, 2016 16:56:15 GMT -6 Sir Alexandreu Davinescu said:

But there is no real reason why a party needs to choose its party leader as Seneschal candidate. In Talossa, it's often just that the most active and driven person is most likely to want to do it and be able to do it. Organizing a political party and running a campaign shows at least some of that ability.

I would be hugely open to alternative scenarios and candidates.

Yeah, I'm open to it too but I see it as optimistic at best given our current issues with activity within governments.

[Eðo Grischun]

I may be wrong, but, I believe in the UK, that under a hung parliament result, the outgoing PM from the previous term gets first crack at forming a new government regardless of party size (in seats won terms).

[Dame Litz Cjantscheir, UrN]

Jan 19, 2016 17:36:52 GMT -6 Eðo Grischun said:

I may be wrong, but, I believe in the UK, that under a hung parliament result, the outgoing PM from the previous term gets first crack at forming a new government regardless of party size (in seats won terms).

Indeed, as was the case in the February 1974 General Election, with the then sitting Prime Minister, Sir Edward Heath. He refused to resign and attempted to build a coalition government despite winning fewer seats than the then opposition Labour Party (his party won 297 vs Labour's 301, even though the Conseratives won ca 200,000 votes more than Labour). He was unable to do this, and so the Labour Party led by The Lord Wilson of Rievaulx (Harold Wilson) took over, in a minority government (he was 17 short of the needed seats), which was unstable and an election was called for October of the same year.