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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Jul 28, 2014 8:06:03 GMT -6
That is the case, legally. There's no way for a party leader to compel a former member to give up their seats - it's always been entirely voluntary, on the principle that the vote was cast for the party, not the person. But if a party wanted to change their policy in this regard, then they could do so at will.
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Glüc da Dhi
Secretary of State
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Talossan Since: 5-14-2009
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Post by Glüc da Dhi on Jul 28, 2014 13:13:09 GMT -6
I wouldnt support changing the law to allow parties to kick out there own MC's. When Eovart was no longer representing the MRPT I advised him to give up his seats, since he was elected to represent the MRPT, but I never forced him to. Allowing parties to do this could have unwanted consequences.
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Glüc da Dhi
Secretary of State
Posts: 6,112
Talossan Since: 5-14-2009
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Post by Glüc da Dhi on Jul 28, 2014 13:56:49 GMT -6
If you disagree with Glüc, you're a liar. Right. There is no arguing about this, this is simply an insult. How do you ever expect to work with me again? Even Sir Alexandreu at the heighth of his villainy never accused me of that. No, the RUMP disagrees with me on the same issue, and I have repeatedly criticised thim for it and had sharp discussions about, which usually didnt lead to personal fighting or insult. I dont claim they are lying because they dont agree with me, even though its on the very same issue. I guess everyone tells lies now and then, so its not like I will never forgive you for it. I was much more angry when you were being disingenuous by suggesting I should have resigned, or the MRPT should have made me resign, while your party has had the chance to get me to resign, but instead supported me till the end and repeatedly expressed confidence, untill elections suddenly became an issue. And btw, you've thrown quite a few insults at me as well. Maybe calling you a liar wasnt a wise thing to do (notice how I posted without having seen Epic coming to the same conclusion.), but I can't retract it either, cause that would be lying too. Let me put it this way: 1. The ZRT made it, through statements on the issue of party lists, clear, beforw the elections, that they would not be assigning seats to people not on their candidate list, except in very exceptional circumstances, such as reunision. 2. The ZRT did assign seats to people on their candidate list, without such an occurrence, or being legally obliged to do so to prevent seats from getting vacant. 3. Provided 1 and 2 are true, the ZRT broke a promise. 4. You denied, understanding the question, the ZRT breaking one of its promises. I promise, that if you can show me that one of these statements is false, I will gladly retract my statement and apologise. PS, will you please stop trying to set the Liberal Congress up against us. This thread has nothing to do with our earlier fight. The MRPT and Liberal Congress disagree on that issue, both parties know this and I dont think either the MRPT or the Liberal Congress is looking for another round of mudslinging about it. This thread is an election thread about me criticising the ZRT for breaking their promise and holding others to different standards than itself.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Jul 28, 2014 14:20:41 GMT -6
Txec: I believe that's the case - however, the drama began when Carlüs left the ZRT to form the LibCons and thus voluntarily surrendered most of his seats back to me. This opened a whole can of worms that we should prevent in future.
As to the substantial issue: Glüc's point 1 is wrong, wrong, wrong. The ZRT has a principled objection to a party seating new MCs that were not named before the election. That has always been my objection. Glüc's understanding - backed up by his own version of the Beagle Boys - that the principle is about the numbers of "seats" distributed is simply wrong. What can be done with the "multiple seats" held by a single MC is not a matter of principle for me because it's a nonsense that shouldn't happen.
If, say, Luc da Schir joined the RUMP and the RUMP gave him an extra seat or two, that's not an issue for me. Nor if Txec Nordselva joined the ModRads and they gave him an extra seat, which apparently for them is tantamount to, I don't know, giving out a bogus award for perverting the course of justice. Remember once again that we are talking about HALF A VOTE given to one ZRT MC rather than another.
The ModRad Beagle Boys are claiming that I stood on a principle that I never held. This is due to (a) a misunderstanding on their part, due to non-native English skills; (b) a cynical attempt to find some, any, filthy stick to bash me with; (c) a combination of the above.
HOWEVER: I do admit that if Carlüs had then handed on one of his seats to his party comrade, as I envisaged, that would have been a contradiction of my principle. Luckily I was averted from making that gruesome mistake.
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Glüc da Dhi
Secretary of State
Posts: 6,112
Talossan Since: 5-14-2009
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Post by Glüc da Dhi on Jul 28, 2014 14:51:14 GMT -6
As to the substantial issue: Glüc's point 1 is wrong, wrong, wrong. The ZRT has a principled objection to a party seating new MCs that were not named before the election. That has always been my objection. Glüc's understanding - backed up by his own version of the Beagle Boys - that the principle is about the numbers of "seats" distributed is simply wrong. What can be done with the "multiple seats" held by a single MC is not a matter of principle for me because it's a nonsense that shouldn't happen. What? That doesnt make any sense to me. Almost every time the RUMP appoints someone not on their list is because someone vacates seats. You criticised them for this. And Mximo wasnt a ZRT MC, he was a LPR MC. The number of seats is relevant, because the LPR received 4 seats, not 5. So just because he already had seats for ANOTHER party, theres no problem anymore. Why? Neither does it make sense to be against electing someone who is not on any list, but suddenly finding no problem when voters could have actually voted for that person, but DIDNT, since after all they voted ZRT. This just seems like the worst excuse ever, and a way of talking yourself out of this contradiction while blaming me for pointing it out. (Also, all these ad hominem attacks are getting pretty annoying) Well, there's a start, considering the way you reacted when I pointed that out ast first. I appreciate your honesty here.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Jul 28, 2014 15:28:51 GMT -6
Ad hominem attacks?! Do you even know what that means? You and Epic called me a liar, and I'm still waiting for a retraction. Because you don't understand my principle doesn't make me a liar.
Once the LPR and the ZRT fused Max was a ZRT MC, plain and simple. You can disagree but don't you dare tell me that I don't honestly hold that opinion.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
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Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Jul 28, 2014 16:14:27 GMT -6
*ahem*
I formally wish to withdraw and apologise for my statements that the Moderate Radical position on this seat allocation issue is motivated entirely or predominantly by "partisan spite". I accept the Moderate Radical leader's good-faith statement that for them it is a matter of principle, no matter what I think of the rigidity or workability of such a principle. Once again, I withdraw the allegation of bad faith.
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Glüc da Dhi
Secretary of State
Posts: 6,112
Talossan Since: 5-14-2009
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Post by Glüc da Dhi on Jul 28, 2014 16:35:57 GMT -6
I'm sorry to have called you a liar. My current intepretation of the ZRT position before the election hasnt changed and I dont see giving a seat to Mximo as being in line with that principle. I cant however pretend to know your motivations or assume that your statements were done in bad faith, so I apologise for that.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Jul 28, 2014 16:39:23 GMT -6
You guys worked it out on Facebook! Good to see! We want a spirited but civil election, and our passion for respective causes can sometimes lead to hasty words.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Jul 28, 2014 16:59:47 GMT -6
If we accept the good faith of our opponents, and give good faith ourselves, all is possible.
BTW, it's not worked out until I hear something from Epic, though this will not prevent the ZRT endorsing him for the M-M Senäts race, or me working with him on the "Talossaleaks" court case.
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Post by Colonel Mximo Carbonèl on Jul 31, 2014 12:14:45 GMT -6
Hi,
As party leader I can do whatever I want with my seat.
I never ask for more seat in my merge talk with the ZRT.
It was a ZRT decision to give me one more seat.
The four seats are mine until I resign or give it back to the leader of my new party.
And people who said I must have been kick out of the Cosa should be ashame.
RPT paid is fee , and received vote in the last election... Do you said to the people who vote for the RPT they must be kick out of their right to representation in the House?
And BTW who lost the VOC? Us because of who? You the MRPT who give 19 seats !!!! to someone who failed to vote.
Mximo
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Jul 31, 2014 13:15:46 GMT -6
I believe the issue, Mximo, is that the ZRT has firmly advocated that only people on their party list at election time should get seats, but that they gave you a ZRT seat anyway.
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Post by D. N. Vercáriâ on Jul 31, 2014 13:58:59 GMT -6
If Mximo joined the ZRT during the term, he technically gave his seat(s) to the ZRT, didn't he - and when he was in the ZRT, they could distribute their stock of seats at whim? Let's turn to a one MC / one seat parliament, and byzantine (re)distributions of seats will be history. Beyond this, who's in Parliament may vote and act following her / his conscience, which may include changing party affiliations.
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Sir C. M. Siervicül
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Post by Sir C. M. Siervicül on Jul 31, 2014 14:10:18 GMT -6
If Mximo joined the ZRT during the term, he technically gave his seat(s) to the ZRT, didn't he - and when he was in the ZRT, they could distribute their stock of seats at whim? Let's turn to a one MC / one seat parliament, and byzantine (re)distributions of seats will be history. Beyond this, who's in Parliament may vote and act following her / his conscience, which may include changing party affiliations. That's certainly how the RUMP feels about it (except for the bit about one MC, one seat).
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Post by D. N. Vercáriâ on Jul 31, 2014 14:20:11 GMT -6
If Mximo joined the ZRT during the term, he technically gave his seat(s) to the ZRT, didn't he - and when he was in the ZRT, they could distribute their stock of seats at whim? Let's turn to a one MC / one seat parliament, and byzantine (re)distributions of seats will be history. Beyond this, who's in Parliament may vote and act following her / his conscience, which may include changing party affiliations. That's certainly how the RUMP feels about it (except for the bit about one MC, one seat). To be more precise, Mximo had been voted into the Cosâ, being the only member / MC of his party. That's not like the RUMP practice of handing out seats to people who have never been on a party list during election time. That's also the thing with the seats of Carlüs that were taken to the LibCon... he has been in Parliament by the time when he declared himself no longer a member of the ZRT. So he wasn't exactly some guy who has been parachuted into the Cosâ behind the backs of the electors.
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