The Not-So-Early Bird Still More orLess Catches the Worm Act

[Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun]

Also, I do not believe that we can revoke citizenship already granted by law - amendment to the Organic Law or no.

[Munditenens Tresplet]

That's the beauty of this bill--we wouldn't be revoking any citizenship that is already granted, as this only affects citizenship applicants.

As for those citizens who are 13 or less but not 14 by the next GE, then they just can't vote (according to OrgLaw), but they are still citizens.

[C. Carlüs Xheraltescù]

Ah, fantastic.

Second concern: in most countries, minors are still considered citizens but without the ability to vote. I feel like this is a way of preparing citizens to exercise effectively their civic duty in the context of their society. With this law, there's no preparatory phase for such citizens, when in truth they will be in more need of it than ever in a nation such as ours.

[Capt. Sir Mick Preston]

May 7, 2014 9:25:05 GMT -6 C. Carlüs Xheraltescù said:

Ah, fantastic.

Second concern: in most countries, minors are still considered citizens but without the ability to vote. I feel like this is a way of preparing citizens to exercise effectively their civic duty in the context of their society. With this law, there's no preparatory phase for such citizens, when in truth they will be in more need of it than ever in a nation such as ours.

Currently, there is only a 14 day waiting period.

[Munditenens Tresplet]

May 7, 2014 9:25:05 GMT -6 C. Carlüs Xheraltescù said:

Second concern: in most countries, minors are still considered citizens but without the ability to vote. I feel like this is a way of preparing citizens to exercise effectively their civic duty in the context of their society. With this law, there's no preparatory phase for such citizens, when in truth they will be in more need of it than ever in a nation such as ours.

I'm not sure I understand you correctly, but this law does create somewhat of a preparatory phase for thirteen-going-on-fourteen applicants that would fall under this law's purview--the preparatory phase would be the amount of time between their grant of citizenship and the General Election. (The fortnight requirement between posting and citizenship would also still be in effect as well.)

[C. Carlüs Xheraltescù]

My point is that there may be some benefit to having some new citizens who have to wait a year or two to vote in that it may well better prepare them for doing so.

[C. Carlüs Xheraltescù]

May 7, 2014 9:42:42 GMT -6 Capt. Sir Mick Preston said:

May 7, 2014 9:25:05 GMT -6 C. Carlüs Xheraltescù said:

Ah, fantastic.

Second concern: in most countries, minors are still considered citizens but without the ability to vote. I feel like this is a way of preparing citizens to exercise effectively their civic duty in the context of their society. With this law, there's no preparatory phase for such citizens, when in truth they will be in more need of it than ever in a nation such as ours.

Currently, there is only a 14 day waiting period.

And I am not uncritical of that either.

[Sir C. M. Siervicül]

May 7, 2014 10:38:55 GMT -6 C. Carlüs Xheraltescù said:

My point is that there may be some benefit to having some new citizens who have to wait a year or two to vote in that it may well better prepare them for doing so.

That would seem to be true for adult immigrants as well as for minors. Elsewhere we've discussed the idea of a period of "permanent residency" before citizenship is granted.

[C. Carlüs Xheraltescù]

May 7, 2014 11:19:53 GMT -6 Sir C. M. Siervicül said:

May 7, 2014 10:38:55 GMT -6 C. Carlüs Xheraltescù said:

My point is that there may be some benefit to having some new citizens who have to wait a year or two to vote in that it may well better prepare them for doing so.

That would seem to be true for adult immigrants as well as for minors. Elsewhere we've discussed the idea of a period of "permanent residency" before citizenship is granted.

The difference being, of course, that this might come across as being rather patronising for adult prospectives. The same could be said of younger prospectives as well, but I feel that given the position of many of our younger prospectives from across the globe that they would be perfectly used to being unable to vote straight away.

[Sevastáin Pinátsch]

May 7, 2014 11:19:53 GMT -6 Sir C. M. Siervicül said:

May 7, 2014 10:38:55 GMT -6 C. Carlüs Xheraltescù said:

My point is that there may be some benefit to having some new citizens who have to wait a year or two to vote in that it may well better prepare them for doing so.

That would seem to be true for adult immigrants as well as for minors. Elsewhere we've discussed the idea of a period of "permanent residency" before citizenship is granted.

An interesting experiment, but bound to alienate a certain type of user: the kind we need more of if we want to see more turnout in the polls.

Political engagement is a core activity. So much so, that I found myself researching a party to join despite originally intending to remain apolitical. There just wasn't enough for me to do here without it.

I can't imagine denying adults that participation for 1-2 years. Waiting for the next general election can be hard enough.

[C. Carlüs Xheraltescù]

That's actually a very good point. Engagement is a problem as well, and we should try to encourage active expression of political freedoms. Further, despite my concerns regarding 14 being a peculiar age under which a line is drawn, it is my understanding that setting it at 13 (which would be required for good legal relations with the US) would cause us legal issues. Having spoken to Senator Tresplet about this in private, I'm more than happy to support this bill, and I would be honoured if the good Senator would be so kind as to add me as a co-sponsor.

[Sir C. M. Siervicül]

May 7, 2014 11:55:54 GMT -6 Sevastáin Pinátsch said:

I can't imagine denying adults that participation for 1-2 years. Waiting for the next general election can be hard enough.

I agree that 1-2 years is too long. I think the last proposal was for a period of six months. Of course, if an immigrant's six-month permanent residency happens to end right after an election does, that ends up being over a year to wait before the immigrant can vote. Maybe instead we should just consider lengthening the 14-day examination period to, say, at least 30 days.

[Ián B. Anglatzarâ]

I have been talking to a twelve-year-old would-be immigrant who, as far as I can tell, could be an asset to the Kingdom. (If you read this, hi Max! *waves*.) I could imagine a standard procedure where 13-year-olds who are not yet eligible for citizenship as per this bill are granted Visitors' passports until the day comes when they can apply for citizenship.

[Sir C. M. Siervicül]

May 13, 2014 7:47:14 GMT -6 Ián B. Anglatzarâ said:

I have been talking to a twelve-year-old would-be immigrant who, as far as I can tell, could be an asset to the Kingdom. (If you read this, hi Max! *waves*.) I could imagine a standard procedure where 13-year-olds who are not yet eligible for citizenship as per this bill are granted Visitors' passports until the day comes when they can apply for citizenship.

That gives me a weird idea that I might as well throw out for comment: what if we just made 13 the minimum age to become a prospective but 14 the minimum age to be granted citizenship (while tolling the expiration of "prospective" status until the applicant turns 14)? This would recognise that 14 is basically our age of majority for civic responsibility purposes, and while participation in the community would be open to 13-year-olds we wouldn't ask anyone to take an oath of citizenship until they reach the age of majority and are legally competent to do so. I don't think other countries generally allow minors to take legally binding citizenship oaths.

[Sir C. M. Siervicül]

No thoughts on this idea from anyone? The more I think about it the more it makes sense to me.