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Post by Sevastáin Pinátsch on Mar 26, 2014 14:39:50 GMT -6
I've been quite clear on transparency (ha ha) if you'll review the thread. It is not clear what you've changed, where and why. In fact, you're not clear on your own deletions (e.g. mace and gong, which you somehow omitted unintentionally without realizing it). I offered a possible solution but you could also use bold text or a per-section description to describe the additions / deletions. As-is, it is not possible for citizens to give any meaningful consent.
If you truly think that people who hold you to a standard of accountability are rude, you don't understand your obligations as a public servant.
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Post by Antaglha Xhenerös Somelieir on Mar 26, 2014 14:52:02 GMT -6
Iy is the manner in which it is written which seems rude. Not what is said.And actually there is a fair bit I've changed from the original constitution such as the format of governance. And other things as well. And yes I did remove the mace and gong originally however upon reflect I want them as provincial symbols but not under the use in the current constitution. Also I answered your points quickly and didn't put much thought into them which I apologise for. But the changes I have made are clear. And so is why if you read the document carefully. And I strongly disagree there people can certainly offer meaningfull content and I will review it all properly when I can put more though and reflection into this project. This is why its being delayed by until mid June. I'm being very open and transparent in this project and you've yet to show me how I have not.
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Post by Sevastáin Pinátsch on Mar 26, 2014 15:17:09 GMT -6
I'm being very open and transparent in this project and you've yet to show me how I have not. As I have explained thoroughly both in the thread and in my previous message, there is no purpose in attempting to explain it to you a third time. Time to branch out. I suggest you visit the Ziu and read as many examples of amendments as you can. See just how clear and simple the politicians demand to see proposed changes before they'll agree to them. They're not stupid — they are diligent and responsible leaders making absolutely certain that they know what is being mucked with before they make change that affects everyone. If even you, as the primary author, do not know what's in your bill and what isn't, and what things were added and what things were deleted, and why... how will anyone else? Whether this bill languishes until June, or July or next January, I will hold you accountable to explain to everyone here what you are proposing and how it differs from the currently ratified constitution detail by detail. We may be here in the sticks, but that doesn't mean we should tolerate shoddy, backwoods politics. I certainly won't.
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Post by Antaglha Xhenerös Somelieir on Mar 26, 2014 16:54:05 GMT -6
If anyone had any specific questions on any changes I have made ill be happy to answer them, I'm sorry I haven't answered some of your points thus far, but I will do asap. Such as the point you made in reference to the usage of Article XVII, section 9 of organic law, I just reused that from the previous constitution, I was unaware of the current format, and in regards to the name which we give citizens of Atatürk I will incorporate them into the constitution. However I have already stated in the document that the constitution in to help improve activity in the province, and opening the commons to all citizens than a select few is good for the activity of this province. Also in regards to the point in your latest comment on the changes, As this is a New constitution there is a lot of changes, and there will be more changes made. And there are some things that I overlooked and forgot which is why I intended for this to be developed over the course of this commons so things like that could be corrected if it happened (as it has) so that everyone is happy with this before it goes to a commons vote then to a referendum if it passes the commons. And of course I'm accountable to answer on this proposal as I am the primary author. However I am only human and do make mistakes, and I have made a few with this and how I have handled it, I freely admit that, but it doesn't mean I don't have the best interests of the province at heart, and im not dealing in "shoddy, backwards politics" as you put it, I haven't exactly been active in this, so far, besides writing the initial document. Also if people don't read this that is not my responsibility, that is there choice, As this is REPLACING the current constitution, a detailed point by point account of changes is not nescarcary, but if people want to ask specific questions. They will be addressed. But I do not appreciate the attack on my political integrity, especially as I am so dedicated to making this province into a thriving place. And just because I can't devote much time to this project now, or that I've been lax with it so far, due to other commitments and issues ive been dealing with, doesn't mean I wont continue with it and properly deal with concerns when I can put the appropriate dedication to this proposal. This is going to be a slow process and I knew that when I proposed this, but that doesn't mean I'm being shoddy, or am being backwards in politics, also all your points on transparency have been so vague they're almost useless, as you have not mentioned specific instances ive not been transparent. I appreciate your concerned with this and have ideas to incorporate into this and you want the speed to go faster, however that doesn't mean you can attack my integrity, as I don't feel it is well deserved. Although I respect you right to say what you have.
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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on Mar 26, 2014 18:09:14 GMT -6
I am sorry but, S:reu Cuntainça (and this issue has come up once already, a long time ago): For heaven's and the gods' sake: Learn to use paragraphs, for it adds tremendously to my ability to read what you have produced, especially when I, as a non-native English speaker, also must sort out your grammatical and orthographic mistakes.
Why, might you ask, does a Vowel-Provincian, who has nothing to do with Atatürk, wish to be able to read stuff that seemingly concerns Atatürkler only? Let me gladly explain:
As far as I am concerned, I am also the Attorney-General of the Realm, serving at the very first the people of the Kingdom of Talossa and their elected Government, but also our gracious Regeu Ián Pirmalaiset, who was, in fact, appointed as King by the people. So, I like to be kept up to date about what happens in the whole of the Realm, for if there should be a passage in your new constitution's draft that I deem inorganic, I must advise the government to take necessary steps in rectifying this potential injustice.
So please, for the sake of every Atatürker and Atatürküz, and for my sake: - be clear in what you change; and, - be cooperative in what you want to retain, and what others want to change; and, - bear in mind that you cannot, at whim, replace Atatürk's constitution with anything you want; and, - memorise that the final draft need be approved by a majority of the whole province, or, if less than the whole of the citizens vote, that it need be approved by two-thirds of the voters; and, last but not least, - utilise some paragraphs by hitting the enter button from time to time!!
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Post by Antaglha Xhenerös Somelieir on Apr 5, 2014 13:41:09 GMT -6
In terms of legality, I have already sought legal council on the initial draft of this bill before I posted it. So I know that in the current form of the draft, it is legal. And I know I cant change this at a whim, I know it needs to pass the House of Commons and a referendum, as stated by organic law, which is going to be a difficult feat. But I have made sure the current drafts conforms to Organic Law. And the set up of the constitution is set out properly. Also if you don't like how I post things, then put up with it, although I don't always use paragraphs, it doesn't detract from what I've said, and I understand that it is a long bit of writing, I tend to write these posts quickly in response, so im sorry if your unhappy with my reply's, but tough, at least im trying to address concerns. And in terms of the content of the proposed constitution this is a new proposal to replace the old constitution (which can easily be found in Atatürk) So the proposal needs to be taken on its own merits, not in comparison to the old constitution, (which some parts of I have in use in this current draft)
And although I speak English, and it is my native language, Im not perfect in speaking the language, so if there are mistakes, they are not intentional, so just put up with them if they are not in a proposal. Also the changes made in the proposal so far are clear for anyone who takes the time to read both documents, and I wouldn't even know how to go about highlighting all the changes made so far between this and the old constitution, and would look too messy to do it all manually with my limited knowledge of the whole quotation thing people do etc etc. Which is why I feel it will be better for everyone to compare them themselves and ask questions, otherwise people may become more confused.
I do have the best interests of this province at heart and I am wanting and trying to make it a better province, and I do not mind constructive criticism, as you have somewhat provided, and advice, but I do not appreciate criticism just for the sake f criticism which is seems Sevastáin Pinátsch has been doing since I said I'm unable to work on this much until mid June. Its not like im not going to work on this again, or take his suggestions in to consideration in the next draft I publish, however as I explained earlier, I just cannot quite manage too much time on this at the moment, although thankfully I have a bit of time but I can't produce another draft until mid June, if I can produce one before this time I will do my best to. However criticism based on time constraints outside of Talossa, I do not find that it is acceptable. I will do my best to perform necessary duties expected of me until then however I am only human, and I am doing my best here. And whilst im eager about this project, its not something which can be rushed. Also It takes ages to get the majority of people in Atatürk to do anything. And whilst I am more active than most, I have to wait upon other commons members so I may as well put this to a vote at the last possible moment and get the bill perfected before then. So id appreciate some leniency in this capacity.
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Post by Sevastáin Pinátsch on Apr 5, 2014 13:53:48 GMT -6
I completely disagree that this proposal is sufficiently unique that the onus is on your constituents to read and analyze it in its entirety. You borrow liberally from the original draft, but in a way that is neither clear to you or anyone else. I have provided you with a number of remedies, which you've flatly refused.
If your assessment of my many attempts to bring to you into a state of transparent and accountable conduct is that I am making criticism for the sake of it, I would ask that you resign immediately.
While I believe you are a fine human being and a capable minister, you are not a reasonable representative of the people you purport to represent.
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Post by Antaglha Xhenerös Somelieir on Apr 5, 2014 14:09:18 GMT -6
I have looked over this thread, and I do not believe you have clearly said how I am not being transparent. And As I have already stated, this isn't a final version, and more changes will be made, I only posted this, this early to get suggestions, and I only recall the roman numerals, not others, but I will look over your suggestions again and if I feel that they are worthy, and necessary I will incorporate them. And as I have found, so far, that you have not put forward a real argument on transparency I think that is just making criticism for the sake of it. And in terms of Accountability, I feel that I have already sufficiently answered those concerns.
And how am I not a reasonable representative might I ask? And I would disagree with your first statement, as I believe it is sufficiently different. As more than half of the document is different. And more will be so by the end.
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Post by Antaglha Xhenerös Somelieir on Apr 5, 2014 14:16:27 GMT -6
However, if you feel that way at the end of this drafting period (which will take a while) that the document is not sufficiently different, as I don't believe I am able to make the comparisons in one thread, or at all with my current knowledge of how to work the proboards site, I would ask that you just post a comparison between this and the last one, however I will still be accountable for this, and respond to what changes were made and why (when the time comes) but a point for point comparison as other people do on this site I do know how to do that, and I feel that if it is done any other way, people will just get confused. But it is upto you, but your help, then, and now is and will be appreciated. but please appreciate that this will take time.
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Post by Sevastáin Pinátsch on Apr 5, 2014 14:46:07 GMT -6
It is truly a task to explain yet another time, in yet another different way, what transparency is. I will try to write very simply and clearly.
You've significantly changed our constitution. You won't say how, or why. You believe that you are working in our best interests, but you expect everyone to read your modified constitution in it's entirety to determine what might have changed, and how, and then ask you why it was changed.
You say that more than half of our constitution has changed, and more will change by the time you're done.
Why?
Why does it fall to you to completely rewrite a fundamental document that forms our way of life, without any explanation to the people affected?
And why should it fall to me to do your job for you to explain the changes?
The Ziu wouldn't tolerate that, nor should we.
I've done as much as I can to assist you, S:reu Cuntainça.
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Post by Antaglha Xhenerös Somelieir on Apr 5, 2014 15:27:49 GMT -6
This is the first time you have really been clear, but Most of these points I have already addressed. And how is it too much to ask that people READ the draft? And then ask why certain things are as they are? In all honesty that's how it works in Talossa, unless I'm mistaken, And im not asking you to explain the changes for me, that I will do, but I'm asking if you would help make the changes clear, so the citizens don't feel confused about an unclear layout.
Also I've significantly changed how the government is lain out in the draft, as well as setting up a better provincial executive body, also a way to design, with he help of the college of arms (I think that's right?) provincial coats of arms and seals, which when created will be affixed to legal documents (once the commons has agreed to do so). these changes I have made to help provincial activity. In the hope it will encourage more citizens to become more active in the province. And in all fairness, I have explained about the change in governance before now. And not many other issues with changes have been bought up.
However in order to try and make amends for what you call a lack of transparency, if you wish, you could come up with your own draft from now until mid-June completely your own, and from then on we could work together (once I have created a second draft) and see how the two documents could become one.
And I've never said it fell to me, but I feel we need a new constitution as the current once isn't helping provincial activity. So I decided to write this and get responses on it and change parts which might need to be changed. And in all fairness, no one beside yourself has asked any questions on this document, and so far I've not been able to spent much time on it, and from now until mid-June I have less time. But I will devote a lot more from then on. And when I have more time, I can, and will gladly address people's concerns over any changes. However, I honestly thought some of the changes were self explanatory, but obviously I was mistaken.
I honestly feel the main problem here is a lack of communication more than anything else. And that has created a lack of understanding. Which is why we are now debating this. Which is another reason to put this off, as I have other concerns to focus on until mid-June, after my exams.
I am sorry that I have not been responding much, and that this is taking so long, also I am sorry that I have been a bit short in my responses etc. Also Im sorry that you feel that I haven't been transparent. I honestly didn't not intend for this to happen. I just ask that you understand that I do have commitments outside of Talossa which unfortunately effects the progress of this proposal. And that it was never my intention to make you feel as you so. I hope the compromise I suggested works for you, and that you agree with it. And that will also give myself time to get my exams out the way before we come into a proper consultation on this, where I have more time to devote to this.
I am sorry for any grievances I may have caused you.
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Post by Antaglha Xhenerös Somelieir on Apr 16, 2014 2:14:23 GMT -6
Do you agree to this?
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Post by Sevastáin Pinátsch on Apr 16, 2014 5:26:43 GMT -6
You may feel we're communicating better, insomuch as you understand what I am saying. I think I've always been clear on your stance and we're still at odds.
It is unrealistic to ask people to read this. These being the same people who are disconnected from their government. These being the same people you hope to get more involved in said government.
I agree a new Constitution is needed. I disagree it should be as long as the current one. It should contain only the essentials to this province and the style of government, in plain language.
Have you read Benito's Constitution?
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Post by Antaglha Xhenerös Somelieir on May 2, 2014 5:52:42 GMT -6
I believe that the essentials are in the constitution I have drafted. But yet to perfect. And I will take some of your concerns on board. But I'll need time to review my own draft to see how it can better reflect the province.
And if you feel you have a better proposal feel free to come up with one and then we can see if we can incorporate them.
And I have brefily seen Benito's constitution. But I personally don't feel that it is a fit for our province. I'm trying to stay close to the original format of the constitution as a president for this province yet changing the documents content. And it will be a while before it is ready to be presented. This is only a RAW draft so I could incorporate the will of the province into the document. And you accuse myself of not being a representative for the whole province. And I agree but neither are you. If this is going to work more citizens will need to contribute than myself and you. Which is why this is going to take so long. As it is an inactive province.
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Post by Sevastáin Pinátsch on May 2, 2014 13:03:57 GMT -6
The only reason I am not a representative of the province is because I haven't been elected yet.
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