Hooligan
Squirrel King of Arms; Cunstaval to Maricopa
Posts: 7,325
Talossan Since: 7-12-2005
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Count Since: 9-8-2012
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Post by Hooligan on Jul 16, 2013 17:28:49 GMT -6
LECTURE 2: TALOSSAN PRONUNCIATION PART 1: VOWELS
IN SHORT AND DETAIL BOTH To be sure, there are some small peculiarisms in Talossan pronunciation, and we'll be going over them this week. But by and large, 95% or more of what you need to know about how Talossan is pronounced can be covered in a bunch of bullet points. So rather than having separate short and detailed lectures this week, we'll go with bullet points that are a bit more fleshed out than was done in the first week. (If you read between the lines, you can understand this to mean, "Hool's assistant professor lackey didn't prepare him a lecture this week, and it's already late, and he is too lazy to write both a short and a detailed lecture.") And also, we're only going to cover vowel pronunciation today, and this will be just "Part 1" of this week's lecture. We'll cover consonants and some quirks of pronunciation tomorrow in what I am tentatively calling, for planning purposes, "Part 2". (Yes, okay, okay; what this means is that I'm being extremely lazy. However, it's also true that there is just a whole lot of ground to cover about pronunciation, and I tricked Iustì into agreeing with me that it would take more than one post to do, so splitting it up is actually good for you, and not simply me being lazy. At least that's my story. And I'm sticking to it.) So anyway, on we go. Vowel pronunciation....
Pronouncing Talossan Vowels When They Appear Alone Notice, first, that teaching pronunciation without any sound is a tricky thing. Even with sound it is, because we all have our own accents and dialects. So, just to make sure everyone's straight, I'll say that I will be describing pronunciation from an American English perspective (or at least my own accented American English), using American English words (and my own pronunciation of them) as examples. If you don't pronounce English the same way your professor does, well, I can't help you. You're just plain wrong, and that's sad for you. On the other hand, although those of you who already have a Romance language background will likely not necessarily find the examples very helpful (since you certainly pronounce English differently than I do), you have the distinct advantage over the other students in that Talossan is a Romance language, with largely Romance pronunciation (like yours), and so seeing English-language examples is likely of little use to you. I've mentioned already (in week 1, or at least I hope I did) that there are two "styles" of Talossan writing that are recognised: the "traditional" and the "simplified" styles. Most (actually, I think all) of the differences in these styles are here in the world of vowels, so we'll cover them here and now. And we'll do it this way: I will describe the "simplified" use of each vowel, and then, in italics, discuss the "traditional" uses you might see (and also a couple of corner-cases seen used even in the "simplified" style). So if you plan to study only the "reformed" or "simplified" style of Talossan writing, you could conceivably skip the italic details below, but you may like the background on our language's history and forms that are there. Your call. - Talossan has eight vowel letters. They are a, e, i, o, and u (all of which can be said to be pronounced as in all other Romance languages, well, except French which can't decide how anything is pronounced, which just goes to prove you can't trust the French), and the three umlaut-marked vowels ä, ö, and ü; (which have Germanic pronunciation roots).
Writers of the "traditional style" also may be seen to use a ninth vowel letter, î. This vowel has a Russian-language pronunciation except when used in the ending -înd or -înds (which is spelled -ind or -ind in the "simplified" style), when it, in whichever style, gets pronounced as if it were a. Yeah, yeah; I know. We'll talk more about that little oddity tomorrow. - Each of the eight vowels can also be seen marked with various diacritical marks. For example, you could see o either unmarked, or as ò or ó (or even as ô). If marked with an acute or grave accent (those are the little diagonal lines, as in ò and ó), this always means that the syllable that the vowel is in is stressed; we'll talk in detail about stress next week.
In the "traditional style" of writing, there is a single exception to this rule concerning the accent always meaning stress: traditionalists will write -escù even though the stress is on the e. Additionally, in traditional style writing, vowels might also be seen with other marks; these will be discussed below in the discussion of each vowel.
- The letter a (without an umlaut or any other mark on it) is always pronounced as in the English words par and spa. However, if the letter is the final vowel letter of a word (such as in cosa) and is not stressed, then the letter a is pronounced as at the end of English sofa or cola. This is also true in the plural of these same words (for example, cosas).
Writers of "traditional style" Talossan often choose, when the word indicates a feminine gender noun (we'll talk about "gender" in a couple weeks) to mark these word-ending letters with either a breve, or, equivalently and more commonly, a circumflex (that is, as cosӑ or cosâ).
Another historical mark you might see is the bolle (a little circle above the letter): å; this mark is no longer in use (in either writing style), but had been used for many years to indicate the pronunciation of the letter a as in the English words law or call. For example, the word now usually seen written sa (= so) had been written så, and many insist on the pronunciation of the vowel in that word as the bolle indicated. (Only a hundred or so words were ever, back in the day, spelled using å.) [Personally, my own accent of English doesn't have any å-sounds in it. Nope; none at all. My speech has undergone what they call the "cot-caught merger" (wiki it, it's cool stuff) so I pronounce the words la and law identically. People elsewhere don't. I can't help them.] - The letter e is always pronounced the first of the two vowel sounds you hear when you say the name of the English letter A. When saying that letter, notice that you are kind of saying something close to "eh-ee". The Talossan letter e is that first (the "eh") sound. So, you ask, why didn't I just say that the letter is pronounced like the English word eh, eh? Well, because. Notice that when you say that word, you almost certainly add the "ee" or even a little "y" sound at the end without thinking about it. Don't do that (if you can help it) when you say a Talossan e.
Writers of "traditional style" Talossan sometimes mark certain e's with an umlaut to indicate a slightly different pronunciation. For example, the word per (= for) may be seen written për by someone using the traditional style.
To make matters slightly confusing, other (non-traditional) writers might use that same mark to indicate that the letter e should not join with an adjacent vowel but be pronounced alone in a separate syllable, as seen in the English name Chloë (pronounced "klo-ee"). The number of Talossan words where one might see this happening is extremely small. - The letter i is always pronounced like it is in the English word police. That is, like the name of the English letter E. So, building off what was just said about the Talossan letter e, above, the way you would "spell" the name of the English letter A in Talossan is...anybody?? Bueller??...correct: ei.
In both writing syles, the letter i with an umlaut (two dots) on it (that is, ï) indicates that the letter is not to join with an adjacent vowel, but rather to be pronounced alone, just as this same mark makes that same indication in the Engilsh word naïve.
Additionally, as mentioned above, the letter î is seen in traditional style writing. In 2007, when "simplified" style was introduced, the words that used this vowel were re-spelled. For example, tîmp (= time) was respelled temp (= time); this is one remaining spelling difference between the two writing styles.
- The letter o is always pronounced like the beginning of the name of the English vowel O. What do I mean by "the beginning of" that sound? you ask. Well, think about it; when you (if "you" are a native English speaker, at least) say the name of the letter O, you actually are saying a little "W-sound" at the end of it. Aren't you? Admit it. Told you so. Try to make a conscious effort to leave that "W-sound" off when saying any Talossan o.
The two writing styles are very much aligned when it comes to the letter o. While traditional style writers may sometimes be seen to use a circumflex to indicate stress on the letter o (that is, ô), and simplified style writers seem to consistently prefer the accent marks (that is, ó or ò), all three symbols are understood to mean the same thing. - The letter u is always pronounced as it is in the English word rule. That is, pronouncing Talossan u is just like saying the word "ooh" (but, again, without that little "w-sound" that you might find yourself adding to the end of that word).
While in traditional style writing, you might see the letter u written with a circumflex (û), you will only see this in the letter combination oû (which "simplified" style writers write without the circumflex), and so, truly, for the letter u itself, there is absolutely no difference in the way it is seen in the two styles of writing. - The letter ä (a with an umlaut, or two-dots) is always pronounced like the letter a in the English words bat, rat, cat, at, hat, sat, mat, add, lad, pad, sad, mad, glad, amber, apt, tan, ran, span, grand, sand, hand, band, can, man, jam, stand, plan, and and. Why did I provide such a long list of examples? Because the first time I taught this class, a Scotsman in the class had a difficult time with my example being the different pronunciation of the words cat and cot are pronounced, since in his dialect they sound identical. Hopefully at least one of those many example words I provided illustrates how Talossan ä is pronounced. Another way to describe it is the sound of the Latin ligature æ.
- The letter ö is pronounced as it is in German. Which is of no great help for those of you who don't know German. And by "those of you" I mean "those of us" because even I am not very good at forming the German ö sound. The best way I've heard it described is to put your mouth in the shape that it would take if you're about to say the name of the English letter E, but then, holding your mouth in that position, say an O instead. Good luck. (Basically, English native Talossan speakers are almost always certain to simply pronounce ö like o, and that's okay. It's just the foreign accent we have.)
- The letter ü is pronounced as it is in German. Which means...well, read what was just said about ö. Everything in that paragraph above applies to ü as well, even the "try putting your mouth in E-position but then say U" advice.
All three of the umlaut-marked vowels are used exactly the same in traditional style and simplified style. Surprised? Well, just for completeness, it wasn't always that way: between 2007 and 2012, "simplified" style writers would use a circumflex if one of these vowels was to be stress marked. However, this practice has been abandoned, since only a very small number of words would need such a stress mark, so they can either be marked with an accent above the two dots, or, more commonly, simply left unmarked and their irregular stress is understood. That might sound scarier than it is; honest. We'll maybe talk more about this in the lesson on stress. For now don't let it stress you out (pun intended).
Due to the abandonment of the use of the circumflex as a stress mark for the umlaut-marked vowels, this allowed â, ô, and û to be marked letters that are only seen in the traditional style of writing (each with its own different meaning, as discussed above).
Pronouncing the Talossan Vowel Combinations (or, to be more professorial, Polyphthongs) - In the main, when you see two (or more) vowels together, you will be correct to pronounce them "together". For example, as was discussed above, the vowel combination ei would be pronounced like the name of the English letter A. There are, though, some exceptions to this rule.
- First, there are doubled vowels. These aren't very common in Talossan, but we do see one of the rare examples in the name of one of the nation's provinces, Maritiimi-Maxhestic. Those two i's in a row are pronounced simply as if they were a single i. Yes, that's right, Maritiimi-Maxhesticans, you can put as many i's as you want in a row, but you can only pronounce one of them. The only exception to this is oo; if you see that, pronounce the o's separately; you know, like in the English word cooperate.
- First of all, there are some vowels that you simply can't "cram" together to form a single sound the way you can with ei. One such example is ea. If you see ea, you pretty much have to use two syllables to say them. Admit it. (It comes out like English "eh-ah", or almost even like "ei-ah", huh?)
- Another extremely important exception to the "just say them together" rule is the very common Talossan vowel combination eu. You see this letter pair a lot, at the end of a lot of words. Someone even mentioned during week 1 how they noticed that the Talossan word-ending -eu seems to be what Talossan chose to use when Spanish chose to use -o. Yep. So, how do you pronounce eu? I'll tell you. The best way I have come up with describing it is to say it as someone with a Cockney dialect would say the middle of the English word bird. Almost as if they're saying "bewd" or "biwd". It's like the sound of the letter I in the word wit or hit, followed by a W-sound. Get it?
- Does this mean that the vowel combination éu is pronounced like that? No. No indeed. No. No, and I say again no. If you see éu (with the accent on the e), this means a stressed letter e, followed (in another syllable) by the letter u. Kinda like the middle of the phrase "grey ooze", or "hey you" (without some of the "y-sound" that might be there between the vowels). We will talk more about what stressmarks mean when you see them on vowels next week.
- Another important exception to the rule is the combination ou. This is not pronounced as it is in English (as in the words hour or our or out). Instead it is pronounced as if the o isn't even there. Yes, just like the Talossan letter u. This isn't all that strange, though, because English does this too in some words: souvenir and tour, for example. So just remember: Talossan ou is always like in those words, not like in aloud or bout.
As we touched on above, in the traditional writing style, this vowel combination is usually seen written with a circumflex above the u. That is, oû. - A final exception to the "just say them together...well, unless you can't, like ea" rule comes into play when the letter c comes before the vowel combination. This gets a bit into consonant pronunciation (which we'll cover in more depth tomorrow) but it's important. You see, if the letter c comes directly in front of the letter e or i, that means the c is pronounced as the English "ch" sound (as in chair or macho). And it also means that the e or i that follows it should be ignored unless it is alone or combines with the next letter. Confusing? Sorry. Maybe an example will clear it up some. The letter combination ce is pronounced like English would pronounce "cheh". The combination cei would be like English would pronounce "chay", and the combination cea would be like English would pronounce "chah" (notice how the "eh-ah" that an ea usually makes is "skipped"; essentially, what I'm saying is that in cases when it would not combine into a single vowel sound with the next letter, an e or an i is only there to cause the c to become pronounced like "ch"). (You see, otherwise, the letter c is always pronounced like the English letter k is pronounced, as in cola or come.)
More to Come... ...As I said, we're crossing over into consonant pronunciation a bit now, so I'll stop here. Until tomorrow. Unless I get too lazy. Which might happen. The floor is open for questions now. I'm sure Iustì will be happy to answer them.
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Hooligan
Squirrel King of Arms; Cunstaval to Maricopa
Posts: 7,325
Talossan Since: 7-12-2005
Motto: PRIMA CAPIAM POCULA
Baron Since: 11-20-2005
Count Since: 9-8-2012
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Post by Hooligan on Jul 16, 2013 17:49:14 GMT -6
All of the detail below was covered briefly above, but since I had spent the time it took to type this all out in answer to a question posed by Éovart Andrinescu over in the Language board here on the forums, I figured it would be worth it to make this repost. So, in case you hadn't run into the post over on the other board and you want a bit more information about how the Talossan circumflex has evolved over time and one possible future it might have, here you are....
The circumflex has had a tortured history in Talossan (and I don't just mean from 2007 forward). Let's see how briefly I can go through it.... Note first that during the years 2007-2012, some Talossan writers (especially those involved in the breakaway Talossan Republic) chose not to follow the recommendations of 2007, and continued using the "PRE-2007" conventions.And note second that, as you're about to see, what a circumflex meant depended on which vowel it appeared above. The circumflex (except for between 2007 and 2012) has never indicated the same kind of modification being made to whichever vowel it was used on. When used now [writers of the "traditional style" use it, writers of the "simplified" style do not], the circumflex means a completely different thing on the vowel a than it means on o, and neither of those meanings is anything close to what a circumflex means when used on i, or on u....So, all that said, here we go: MARK | PRE-2007 | 2007-2012 | 2012+ | â | This mark was originally ӑ (that is, using a breve mark, rather than a circumflex). Long long ago, the Committee for the Use of the Language recommended that it become â, since â is more available on standard keyboards.
This mark, as Lüc said, indicates the phonological "schwa" sound of an unstressed final -a as in English sofa, cola, or soda. It therefore was used on tons and tons of Talossan words — virtually every word ending in an unstressed letter -a (and, of course, in the plural of those words, -âs, as in cosâs). In all such words, the mark also indicated that the word was feminine in its gramatical gender. For example, apâ indicated the feminine noun meaning "water" while apa (though pronounced identically) indicated the masculine noun meaning "grandfather".
For whatever reason, â was never seen anywhere else than at the end of a word. That is, it is never seen in the middle of a word, or to begin a word. For example, although the a in a word like picalour is that same kind of schwa phoneme, that a was never marked with the circumflex. Given this, you could conclude that â was more a "feminine gender mark" than it was a "schwa phoneme mark". | The Arestada of 2007 recommended that â be no longer used for this purpose, since the sound of unstressed a naturally, phonologically, devolves to a schwa anyway, and needs no marking to indicate this.
In support of this decision, the Committee also felt that indication of grammatical gender by the writing system was something that should be eschewed, especially since this was the only instance of such a thing in the entire language.
So instead of the use described to the left, the Arestada of 2007 recommended that â be used to indicate the vowel ä taking irregular stress. (See below the table for more on this.)
| The Arestada of 2012 acknowledges two "writing systems" in use.
In the "traditional" or "classic" style, â is used as described in the "PRE-2007" column.
[In fact, the Arestada of 2012 actually also re-recognised the original ӑ (using the breve mark) as a fully equivalent alternative that is sometimes seen in "traditional style".]
In the "reformed" or "simplified" style, â is not used at all (and words like cosâ are written cosa). (Again, see the discussion of û for how the 2007-2012 use of â was dealt with in 2012.)
| ê | This mark was used to indicate stress on the vowel ë (which, in pre-2007 Talossan...apart from a special and completely different use it also had and that we won't go into here, since this is about ê, not ë...represented a phoneme of e, similar to how â had, pre-2007, represented a phoneme of the vowel a). | The Arestada of 2007 recommended that both ë (and therefore ê, its stressmarked form), be removed from the language, and that all uses of the vowel ë simply be written e. (As discussed above, the Committee felt that marks which indicated natural phonology should be removed.) | My belief (subject to correction by the people listed above) is that through the Arestada of 2012, the recommendations of 2007 were accepted by all Talossan writers, and ê is no longer in current use.
However, ë, its unstressed form, is still used (without Committee recognition) in certain words by users of the "traditional style. For example, për (= for) is the traditional style for the simplified style per. [And, in a whole other area, estarë (= to be) is seen used, though not recommended by the Committee, by traditional style writers where a simplified style writer would use estarh. But like I say, that's off-topic; this is about the circumflex, not the umlaut.] | î | This letter had two meanings. First, it was used in the word-ending -înd, which is akin to the English ending -ing. But, defying logic, the letter was pronounced as if it were the letter a.
Second, in all other words it appeared in, î indicated a whole separate vowel sound, a sound that a particular Russian language vowel makes. It's a sound that is difficult for English speakers to get their mouths around, and therefore it was often a subject of "should we just get rid of î, since people aren't pronouncing it anyway?" discussions, even in the pre-2007 Committee which included Ben Madison, the creator of the language. | The Arestada of 2007 recommended that all instances of î be respelled to other vowels (usually i, but sometimes e or even other vowels), depending on the way people were actually pronouncing the word, and the etymological root of the word).
This action was recommended and made, since the Committee worked under the evidence that even Ben had indicated that î was not workable and that he had "grown tired" of it.
(Note that the -înd ending became -ind, but that this ending is still, as ever, pronounced irregularly, as if it were spelled -ant.) | Some Talossan writers (especially members of the former Talossan Republic) resisted the 2007 recommendation, and many continue to use î for both of the pre-2007 uses described to the left.
The Arestada of 2012 accepted the use of î as a mark seen in the "traditional" writing style in the word-ending -ind. That is, you may see the word marschind (= walking; this is the "simplified" style) written marschînd (that is the "traditional" style).
However, the Arestada of 2012 did not re-recognise the other meaning of î (the true separate Russian-born vowel sound). So, while this is not currently recommended by the Committee, some writers who adhere to pre-2007 conventions may still be seen to write tîmp for the word temp (= time; in "simplified" style). | ô | This mark was used to indicate stress on the vowel o. | The Arestada of 2007 recommended that stress marks be made consistent, and therefore that the vowel o be marked for stress using the accent mark, ó, like the other vowels. This Arestada went on, then, to recommend that ô be used to indicate stress on the vowel ö. (See below the table for more on this.) | My belief is that through the Arestada of 2012, the recommendations of 2007 were accepted by all Talossan writers, and ô is no longer in current use. (Again, see the discussion of û for how this worked.)
However, I also believe that the Arestada recognises that ô is a fully acceptable and equivalent alternative to ó, that may be seen used in the "traditional" style. | û | This mark had two uses. One was that it appeared in the vowel combination oû, which is simply pronounced as the single vowel u.
The other was used to indicate a phoneme of the vowel u (the phoneme heard in words like English mutt). | The Arestada of 2007 recommended that the vowel combination oû be simplified in writing to ou and that the other use of û, being phonological, be deprecated.
Instead, the Committee recommended that û be used as the stressmarked form of the vowel ü. (See below the table for more on this.) | Many users of the "traditional" style continue to use û for both of its pre-2007 meanings, but in the Arestada of 2012, the Committee only re-recognised one of these, indicating that û is seen used in the vowel combination ou by writers using the "traditional" style (i.e., oû). |
So, you ask, what about the use that the marks â, ô, and û were put to from 2007-2012 (to wit: indicating stress on umlaut-marked vowels), and — since those marks were given "back" to their pre-2007 uses in 2012 — how are umlaut-marked vowels marked for stress today?? What an excellent question. Well, I'll tell you. First of all, you need to know that before 2007, the Talossan stress situation was...stressful. For example, the word acü (= acute) had no stress mark, and yet it was stressed in speech on the final vowel. See, before 2007, despite all of the various marks being used, Talossan had no stress rule — you just had to "know" how each word was stressed, because the marks were very inconsistent. With the institution of a stress rule in 2007, the location of "default" stress on all words became determinable. Under the 2007 stress rule, though, the final ü in acü did not fall in the "default" stress position of that word, and so that vowel needed to be marked somehow to indicate that it should be stressed in speech. The Arestada of 2007 recommended û for this purpose, and the word became spelled acû for those years.
Similarly, â and ô were recommended in 2007 for the similarly rarely-needed irregular stress marking of the vowels ä and ö.
The Arestada of 2012 changed the recommendation concerning how irregular stress on ä, ö, and ü is to be marked. In those rare words that it would even be called for, the Committee recommends that the umlaut simply be topped with an accent mark.
However, the Committee also recognised that the number of words that would call for such a mark under the updated stress rule is so very small that the mark is often simply left off in writing and the word's irregular stress is understood. [The only truly common such word out of the honestly only nine or ten words in this situation is säparh (= to know), which is stressed on the ä even though it is not in the "default" stress position by rule (the other a is) and is not stress marked.]
(The example word given in the table, acü, no longer needs a stress mark, due to the update of the stress rule concerning how to locate "default" stress in a word.) So that's the past and present of the Talossan circumflex. As for its possible (or at least one theoretical) future.... Firstly, note that writers using the "traditional style", while now embracing the stress rule, often choose to explicitly mark default stress, especially on certain word endings, such as -éir, which (under the stress rule accepted by all, technically does not need the stress mark, and is usually seen written -eir in the "simplified style"). Given this, and the fact that both -ind and -our are stressed endings... - Should writers of the traditional style choose to use ӑ (the re-recognised breve), rather than â, to indicate the feminine and/or schwa meanings discussed above, this would allow the then-disused â to perhaps eventually be seen put to use as an alternate form of the simple stress-marked a (that is, â would perhaps someday become just an alternative to á).
- With ê already deprecated from the language, there is nothing barring it from being recognised as simply an alternate form of the stress marked e (that is, ê could perhaps be recognised and used as just an equivalent alternative to é).
- Should writers of the traditional style ever abandon the Russian-vowel-indicative meaning of î, and adopt the 2007 re-spellings for the words in which it appears (that is, temp rather than tîmp for "time", etc.), this would mean that î would typically be seen only the word-ending -înd. This is a stressed ending, which means that î could someday be recognised as simply an alternative to stress marked i. (Note that, whether marked for its default stress or not, the -ind ending, as ever, is still pronounced irregularly, of course.)
- The mark ô is already recognised as wholly equivalent to ó.
- The re-recognition of the use, in the traditional style, of û in the vowel combination oû (which almost invariably occurs when that consonant combination is taking stress, and by far most commonly in the stressed word-ending -oûr) means that û can perhaps already be viewed as simply an alternative to the simple stress mark on u, since -oú (-oû) is recognised already as the stress marked form of the vowel combination -ou.
...so in one possible future, the circumflex in Talossan could eventually be nothing more than a different way to write an accent mark above any and every vowel! Which means that it's at least remotely possible that with only a few turns of the pages of linguistic use and evolution, the circumflex may actually come to mean the same thing when used over any of the vowels, and that we would be able to say that á=â=à and that é=ê=è, etc.
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Post by Charles Wickersham on Jul 18, 2013 10:06:36 GMT -6
I would like to add to the discussion of pronouncing ö and ü, if I may, to hopefully assist us native English speakers.
According to talossan.com an approximation of ö is the sound of "oo" in "book" or "good"; which should be similar to the sound you make following Baron Hooligan's instructions above, it's just easier for me to think about making the vowel sounds in "book". It's an odd feeling making that sound in other words besides the few we have in English, but it's not too difficult.
For ü, I make the "E" sound, but round my lips (as though to say "o"). The English "E" sound is "unrounded" i.e. your lips are more-or-less pulled flat when you make that sound. The ü sound, as I understand it, is the English "E" sound's "rounded" counterpart, or atleast close to it. So if you say "E" (or Talossan "i") then purse your lips as though to say "oo" or "o" (which are both "rounded" vowels) then you should be pretty close. This works great in isolation, but trying to articulate ü in the middle of a word can sometimes be challenging for a native English speaker.(Atleast it is for me!)
Please let me know if any of this is incorrect, and I hope this helps to clarify the ö and ü sounds for those of us with English accented Talossan!
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Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă
Puisne (Associate) Justice of the Uppermost Court
Fraichetz dels punts, es non dels mürs
Posts: 4,063
Talossan Since: 9-23-2012
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Post by Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă on Jul 19, 2013 9:36:15 GMT -6
Was there any homework this week?
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Sir C. M. Siervicül
Posts: 9,636
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Post by Sir C. M. Siervicül on Jul 19, 2013 13:30:55 GMT -6
The ö and ü sounds are also common in French, in case anyone is more familiar with that than German.
A point of historical interest: Some might wonder how Talossan got the (now-obsolete) sound î, when it is described above as a Russian vowel. The answer is that, although Russian is the biggest and most well-known language to feature the sound, Talossan got the sound from Romanian, where it is also common. Talossan had a lot of Romanian influences, including the -ă feminine noun ending (which became -â in the '90s and -a in 2007) and the -escu participial/patronymic ending. Romanian is a Romance language with some influences from neighboring Slavic languages, and that Slavic influence is probably the reason the î sound is in Romanian.
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Lüc da Schir
Senator for Benito
If Italy wins a Six Nations match I will join the Zouaves
Posts: 4,125
Talossan Since: 3-21-2012
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Post by Lüc da Schir on Jul 19, 2013 15:17:26 GMT -6
Talking about borrowing, does anyone (Hooligan? Iustì?) know how "Friul" became the Talossan word for "mall"? My home region is not a mall!
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Post by Jack Bevolo on Jul 19, 2013 17:13:30 GMT -6
Sorry for the tardiness! Present
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Hooligan
Squirrel King of Arms; Cunstaval to Maricopa
Posts: 7,325
Talossan Since: 7-12-2005
Motto: PRIMA CAPIAM POCULA
Baron Since: 11-20-2005
Count Since: 9-8-2012
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Post by Hooligan on Jul 20, 2013 11:08:15 GMT -6
Speaking of tardiness, apologies from the professor as well! I will get to work on part 2 (consonants and stuff) now.
I think Iustì is waiting for that second part of the lecture to be given before assigning homework.
So we're a little behind. (Who's surprised?)
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Post by Aspra Roseta Laira on Jul 23, 2013 7:05:44 GMT -6
Does "eu" sound like the sound you make if you find rotten leftover Chinese food in your fridge when you're hungry? If so, it seems to sound like the u with umlaut. As in the German word for "over" (ueber). Are these sounds similar?
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Post by Iustì Carlüs Canun on Jul 23, 2013 19:41:14 GMT -6
Does "eu" sound like the sound you make if you find rotten leftover Chinese food in your fridge when you're hungry? If so, it seems to sound like the u with umlaut. As in the German word for "over" (ueber). Are these sounds similar? It's "ih+oo," but you say it fast. So it's kind of like "Ew!" But no, it's not like ü. That one is more like the mouth-shape of "eh" but the sound "oo." Or "oo," but without rounding.
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Post by Iustì Carlüs Canun on Jul 23, 2013 23:53:17 GMT -6
Da Prof has omitted one thing about the "say them together" thing. Well, two, really.
If you see i before a vowel, it's pronounced like English "Y." You'll occasionally see this spelled with a j instead of an i. If you see u before a vowel, it's pronounced like English "W." You won't often see this spelled with a w.
However, w does have its use. Occasionally it'll be in the middle of two vowels, as in the word dréwiþ "druid." It's pronounced /'dre.wiθ/ (DRAY-weeth), while if it were spelled dréuiþ, it'd be /'dre.u.iθ/ (DRAY-oo-eeth). For the same reason, the word awardeu is not spelled auardeu, because then it'd be /aʊ.'ar.dɪʊ/ (ow-AR-dew) instead of /ə.'war.dɪʊ/ (uh-WAR-dew).
The letter j kind of does this too, but there are exactly two words with vowel-J-vowel (compared to nine with vowel-W-vowel in them): dojén (senior member) and najà (yeah, I'm listening), /do.'jen/ & /nə.'ja/ or /na.'ja/, respectively.
Sidenote: How cool is it that there's a Talossan word for "Yeah, I'm listening"?
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Sir C. M. Siervicül
Posts: 9,636
Talossan Since: 8-13-2005
Knight Since: 7-28-2007
Motto: Nonnisi Deo serviendum
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Post by Sir C. M. Siervicül on Jul 24, 2013 4:07:15 GMT -6
Talking about borrowing, does anyone (Hooligan? Iustì?) know how "Friul" became the Talossan word for "mall"? My home region is not a mall! Talossan friul is also the word for a public square or forum. The "mall" meaning is derivative of that meaning. The name of the Italian region of Friuli derives from Forum Iulii, the market town (Latin forum) established in that region by Julius Caesar. Presumably that's the association that resulted in the Talossan word.
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Hooligan
Squirrel King of Arms; Cunstaval to Maricopa
Posts: 7,325
Talossan Since: 7-12-2005
Motto: PRIMA CAPIAM POCULA
Baron Since: 11-20-2005
Count Since: 9-8-2012
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Post by Hooligan on Jul 24, 2013 10:25:40 GMT -6
Da Prof has omitted one thing about the "say them together" thing. Well, two, really. If you see i before a vowel, it's pronounced like English "Y." You'll occasionally see this spelled with a j instead of an i. If you see u before a vowel, it's pronounced like English "W." You won't often see this spelled with a w. Da Prof covered some (but not all) of this in Part 2 of the lecture.
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Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă
Puisne (Associate) Justice of the Uppermost Court
Fraichetz dels punts, es non dels mürs
Posts: 4,063
Talossan Since: 9-23-2012
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Post by Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă on Jul 27, 2013 11:49:07 GMT -6
is the "eu" kind of like the ending sounds of the French word "adieu"?
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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on Jul 28, 2013 18:15:03 GMT -6
is the "eu" kind of like the ending sounds of the French word "adieu"? No, "adieu" in French would be written "adjö" in Talossan. "eu" is like when you hurt yourself and say "ow", only that, instead of the dark "ahw", you say it in a more... gay manner. Yes, gay covers it; like "Eahw", or even "äw", if you will.
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