[PROPOSAL] A Constitution for Fiôvâ

[C. Carlüs Xheraltescù]

I can't find the provision in the Organic Law which says that the King/Cunstavál has that authority. If someone could point me in the right direction, t'would be good.

[Capt. Sir Mick Preston]

Apr 23, 2012 15:24:12 GMT -6 C. Carlüs Xheraltescù said:

I can't find the provision in the Organic Law which says that the King/Cunstavál has that authority. If someone could point me in the right direction, t'would be good.

Article XVII: Territorial Subdivisions

Section 9. Each Province shall govern itself in such a manner as to guarantee its citizens the full protection of their rights under this Organic Law. Provincial elections may, if so specified in a Province's constitution, be conducted by the Chancery at the same time as elections to the Cosâ, and in accordance with the national election laws and rules. The King shall appoint a Cunstavál (or Constable) for each Province. ...

[Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN]

Deet: just a note, Dr Manmohan Singh is the Prime Minister of India, the President is Ms. Pratibha Patil.

[Istefan Perþonest]

Hmmm.

If the Capitán is elected by the Legislature and is responsible to them, then the King/Cunstaval would presumably have the same powers relative to the Capitán that the King has relative to the Seneschal.

If the Capitán is instead elected by a ballot of the people to a fixed term, then it is unclear that the King/Cunstaval would be able to remove him. Does the King's power relative to a prime minster effectively require that any local executive of a "prime minister" type, or is a "presidency" permissible? And if the latter, would the different form of office still have to have its occupant subject to removal by the King/Cunstaval, or would it not apply?

[Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN]

Israel for a while had its Prime Minister directly elected by the people. I think the President still had the right to dismiss.

[Deleted]

I hope you folks don't mind a Benitian coming to lend a hand. I was part of the Constitutional Committee for Benito and thought maybe I could clarify this sticky subject.

The answer to your query regarding the power of the Cunstuval is that it is limited to what it says in the OrgLaw. You may notice that it is notoriously vague in this area.

The Organic Law allows for Provinces to pretty much do whatever they want, provided it does not violate Organic or National Statutory Law.

Until a Province has a Constitution proclaimed, officially, every function of its government is executed by the Cunstuval. However, once the constitution is proclaimed, then the constitution becomes the law of the land.

By its very nature, it limits the powers of the Cunstuval (unless you write a Constitution reaffirming that the Cunstuval has absolute authority, which would be kind of whacky).

Benito's Constitution does not permit the Cunstuval (called the Vicere there) to remove the Maestro (Premier). The people get to choose the Maestro and the King gets to choose the Cunstuval.

So yes, you can absolutely prevent the removal of the Premier by the Cunstuval. You can widdle down the Cunstuval's power as much as the Organic Law allows.

EDIT: Also, don't forget, you can also establish a system of Provincial Courts or you can state that all judicial matters proceed directly to National Courts.

[Deleted]

Apr 23, 2012 17:33:42 GMT -6 Istefan Perþonest said:

Hmmm.

If the Capitán is elected by the Legislature and is responsible to them, then the King/Cunstaval would presumably have the same powers relative to the Capitán that the King has relative to the Seneschal.

The Powers of the King as they relate to the Seneschal are derived from Organic Law. After a Constitution is declared, the powers of the Cunstuval as they relate to the premier are derived from the Constitution (which cannot conflict with Organic Law).

If the Capitán is instead elected by a ballot of the people to a fixed term, then it is unclear that the King/Cunstaval would be able to remove him. Does the King's power relative to a prime minster effectively require that any local executive of a "prime minister" type, or is a "presidency" permissible? And if the latter, would the different form of office still have to have its occupant subject to removal by the King/Cunstaval, or would it not apply?

Think of the Constitution as a Magna Carta. It is the Cunstuval, on behalf of the King (or sometimes the King directly) relinquishing part of his/her authority to the people as outlined.

When applying the OrgLaw to the Cunstuval, you need only review the sections pertaining to the Cunstuval, you don't need to try to apply every single provision for the King to the Cunstuval as well.

[Sir Alexandreu Davinescu]

If your provincial constitution states that the cunstaval does not have the power to sack your provincial head, then he does not. A cunstaval only exercises total provincial authority (which would include that power) if a proclaimed constitution does not state otherwise ("Until such time as the King or Cunstavál proclaims a provincial constitution providing otherwise, a Province's Cunstavál shall serve as Military Governor and may exercise all the powers of the provincial government. "). The cunstaval cannot even issue a writ of dissolution if provincial elections are concurrent with national ones. The only adamantine rights that I can see in the OrgLaw mandated for the cunstaval within a provincial constitution are that he be given the right to appeal decisions of provincial courts, and (assuming you interpret the clause of "powers extensive as the King on the national level" to portend an analogous rather than delegatory transfer of power) the power to veto provincial bills and create provincial holidays, awards, pardons, etc.

[Istefan Perþonest]

Apr 23, 2012 19:24:00 GMT -6 Adm. T.M. Asmourescu, O. Ben. said:

You can widdle down the Cunstuval's power as much as the Organic Law allows.

Sure. And the Organic Law contains the provision, in Article XVII, Section 9, that:

"No Cunstavál shall proclaim any provincial constitution or constitutional amendment which: . . . Grants to the King (and consequently to the Cunstavál as the King's representative in the Province) royal powers less extensive than those granted to the King on the national level, except that the provincial royal powers need not include a right of dissolution if provincial elections are held concurrently with Cosâ elections".

I don't see how to read that without concluding that every power the King has under the Organic Law on the national level must, in fact, be granted on the provincial level by the provincial constitution, or else the Cunstaval is prohibited from proclaiming the provincial constitution.

[C. Carlüs Xheraltescù]

Apr 23, 2012 19:24:00 GMT -6 Adm. T.M. Asmourescu, O. Ben. said:

I hope you folks don't mind a Benitian coming to lend a hand. I was part of the Constitutional Committee for Benito and thought maybe I could clarify this sticky subject.

The answer to your query regarding the power ofui the Cunstuval is that it is limited to what it says in the OrgLaw. You may notice that it is notoriously vague in this area.

The Organic Law allows for Provinces to pretty much do whatever they want, provided it does not violate Organic or National Statutory Law.

Until a Province has a Constitution proclaimed, officially, every function of its government is executed by the Cunstuval. However, once the constitution is proclaimed, then the constitution becomes the law of the land.

By its very nature, it limits the powers of the Cunstuval (unless you write a Constitution reaffirming that the Cunstuval has absolute authority, which would be kind of whacky).

Benito's Constitution does not permit the Cunstuval (called the Vicere there) to remove the Maestro (Premier). The people get to choose the Maestro and the King gets to choose the Cunstuval.

So yes, you can absolutely prevent the removal of the Premier by the Cunstuval. You can widdle down the Cunstuval's power as much as the Organic Law allows.

EDIT: Also, don't forget, you can also establish a system of Provincial Courts or you can state that all judicial matters proceed directly to National Courts.

That was my interpretation, but I was unsure if I had missed something.

The Organic Law doesn't grant the King or his appointed representative the power to remove an elected provincial chief executive, so I don't think we should include that bit in our Constitution - we're creating more problems for ourselves.

[Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN]

Alright, that can be pulled with no problems. I just assumed it had to be in there.

[Istefan Perþonest]

When I mentioned this issue to the King, he was of the opinion that "the essential point is that the Cunstaval is the Provincial parallel of the Head of State, and the (presumably elected) Head of Government is subject to dismissal by the Crown (or Cunstaval)."

I would accordingly strongly recommend that, in fact, there be provision for the Crown to dismiss a Capitán, as proclamation of the constitution by the King is an essential step in the process.

[C. Carlüs Xheraltescù]

I see no reason to do this. No other province has a provision for doing so, and it does not appear to be required by the Organic Law. Plus, given Fiôvâ's democratic roots it seems hypocritical and insensitive of our revolutionary culture to set a precedent in this respect.

[Audrada Rôibeardét]

I agree with Vialesch.

[Deleted]

Apr 24, 2012 1:49:29 GMT -6 Istefan Perþonest said:

When I mentioned this issue to the King, he was of the opinion that "the essential point is that the Cunstaval is the Provincial parallel of the Head of State, and the (presumably elected) Head of Government is subject to dismissal by the Crown (or Cunstaval)."

I would accordingly strongly recommend that, in fact, there be provision for the Crown to dismiss a Capitán, as proclamation of the constitution by the King is an essential step in the process.

I disagree.

There are two powers we are discussing here. One is the removal of a Seneschal and the other is the right to dissolve a government.

You are treating the two powers as separate, rather than as an extension of one another. But a Seneschal cannot be removed without the Cosa being dissolved, at least as far as I am reading (please interject another bit of organic law if I missed something)

The right to remove a Head of State is an extension of the right of dissolution which, according to Article XVII Section 9, is not required if the Provincial elections coincide with the national General Elections.

As the Organic Law specifically states that the Province does not require a right of dissolution in its Constitution, I do not see how it would be inOrganic to not include a provision allowing the Cunstuval to dismiss the Capitan.

To further protect this right, I would encourage the citizens of Fiova to do two things:

1) Stipulate in their Constitution that elections coincide with the General Election
2) Lay out very specific guidelines for the appointment, duties and procedures for removal for the Capitan.