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Post by kri on Jul 27, 2005 9:01:49 GMT -6
OK, John, I'm not going to talk about legal issues in public.
I messaged you to talk about this privately, and your response was to ask to publish my message on Wittenberg.
Ben
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King John
King of Talossa
Posts: 2,415
Talossan Since: 5-7-2005
Knight Since: 11-30-2005
Motto: COR UNUM
King Since: 3-14-2007
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Post by King John on Jul 27, 2005 9:15:46 GMT -6
Thank you, Mr Seneschál!
Is it your government's intention or desire to put a dictionary and grammar of Talossan on our website, or somewhere else that makes it easily available?
If so, bravo!, I salute you.
If not, maybe you should tone down that claim to "promote the Talossan language wherever possible".
In today's world, putting information on line is far more effective "promotion" than offering to sell (or even to give away) books at some future date.
— John Woolley
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King John
King of Talossa
Posts: 2,415
Talossan Since: 5-7-2005
Knight Since: 11-30-2005
Motto: COR UNUM
King Since: 3-14-2007
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Post by King John on Jul 27, 2005 9:27:49 GMT -6
I wrote: Meanwhile, the Republicans ("quitters") seem to be actually trying to "promote the Talossan language wherever possible, and use Talossan as a recruiting tool to attract new citizens". Why aren't we in the Kingdom doing this? Has the MN done anything? Why not? The King characterized this as "go[ing] on Wittenberg and celebrat[ing] plagiarism". To which I simply cannot think of any sufficient, and yet courteous, answer. Once again I ask — does anyone besides the King think that this (or anything else I've written) merits "a lifetime of enmity from patriotic Talossans"? Are there any patriotic Talossans out there besides the King who consider that I've incurred their lifelong enmity? — John Woolley
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Post by kri on Jul 27, 2005 9:34:08 GMT -6
John, are you a member of the quitters group?
Ben
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King John
King of Talossa
Posts: 2,415
Talossan Since: 5-7-2005
Knight Since: 11-30-2005
Motto: COR UNUM
King Since: 3-14-2007
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Post by King John on Jul 27, 2005 10:02:55 GMT -6
Holy moly, where did that come from?
But to answer: As far as I know, I have never had any contact — personally, by email, by chat, by bulletin board, by surface mail, by phone, or by any other means whatever — with any of the "quitters" or any members of the so-called "Republic of Talossa".
— John Woolley
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Post by kri on Jul 27, 2005 13:47:22 GMT -6
>Holy moly, where did that come from? Because, I am sad to say, there's been some speculation about that -- and (somewhat surprisingly) I was not the source of the speculation. >But to answer: As far as I know, I have never had any contact — personally, by email, by chat, by bulletin board, by surface mail, by phone, or by any other means whatever — with any of the "quitters" or any members of the so-called "Republic of Talossa". That reassures me. Thanks for the affirmation. The main reason I asked is that this insistence that we absolutely, positively must give everybody free access to all our language materials, is exactly the position the quitters have taken, because they want to be able to use our language for their own purposes. Last year I proposed a grand agreement with them where they would indeed be able to use the language, with our permission, if they would just stop using the word "Talossa" to identify themselves, and shared ownership of the domain names. They refused. The internet service providers which they used to store bootleg copies of the old grammar and the old dictionary agreed with our position that those were copyrighted texts and that the quitters were not entitled to use them. On two occasions, ISP's took action to shut down websites set up by the quitters. My personal preference (and, since I hold the files and the copyright, my preference here is going to be decisive...) is that the works be made available in book form only. There really is no reason for a digital version to circulate. It annoyed me to no end when you appeared to be celebrating their achievements, in this sort of "Look at all the great stuff they're doing!" tone. They have done nothing with the language but steal it. They have revealed only their own lack of originality and creativity by mooching off someone else's name, someone else's design, and someone else's work. And until you see the world in those terms, I'm afraid I won't ever be able to trust you completely. Now, the brighter side of all this would be for you to offer positive suggestions on how to get the web page updated, and to help me with the typing and word derivation aspects of the language. Gary Cone, Tomás Gariçéir, and Márcüs Cantaloûr have all helped out with this over the past six months. The Talossan language is our project; it reflects our creativity as Talossans. Will you help us? Ben
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King John
King of Talossa
Posts: 2,415
Talossan Since: 5-7-2005
Knight Since: 11-30-2005
Motto: COR UNUM
King Since: 3-14-2007
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Post by King John on Jul 27, 2005 15:33:55 GMT -6
His Majesty certainly owns the copyrights to the best Dictionary and Grammar of Talossan available. It is his right — and I don't think anyone here contests this — to restrict or prevent free access to those works, and thereby to make it vastly more difficult for people to learn and to use the language.
But if he goes on impeding, restricting, forbidding — which he certainly can do —, hadn't he better stop professing agreement with the MN's policy to "promote the Talossan language wherever possible"? And shouldn't the MN either reverse their own policy, or openly oppose the King's?
— John Woolley
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Post by markymark on Jul 27, 2005 16:07:37 GMT -6
If you examine the MN's policies you will notice that the number one position in our platform is the following:
"1. In the MN, we're patriots. Talossa must take an uncompromising stand against "micronations," bug nations, and all their psychotic and alcoholic inhabitants. No "diplomacy" with plagiarists! No "relations" with copycats! The duty of "micronationalists" is to grow up and join Talossa."
Since there is a danger of unauthorized use of the Talossan language, we must take certain precautions, such as not posting certain material online.
Also, as Secretary of the MN, I do not need a person who is not a member telling me how to interpret the policies of my party. Thank you.
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King John
King of Talossa
Posts: 2,415
Talossan Since: 5-7-2005
Knight Since: 11-30-2005
Motto: COR UNUM
King Since: 3-14-2007
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Post by King John on Jul 27, 2005 16:43:35 GMT -6
The Secretary of the MN wrote: I do not need a person who is not a member telling me how to interpret the policies of my party. Thank you. Excuse me? I thought we having a political discussion? I'm a voter/citizen of Talossa, and I see your party advocating a political position — promotion of the language "wherever possible" — that I agree with, but that you evidently don't. Does the MN or its Secretary really think there's anything wrong with my pointing out what I see as political inconsistency? If the MN is going to get all sensitive when anyone asks pointed questions about its policies, maybe it shouldn't be contesting elections in a country with free speech. At least, maybe it shouldn't publish the policies on a web-page and advertise the URL. — John Woolley
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King John
King of Talossa
Posts: 2,415
Talossan Since: 5-7-2005
Knight Since: 11-30-2005
Motto: COR UNUM
King Since: 3-14-2007
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Post by King John on Jul 27, 2005 16:46:42 GMT -6
Oh yeah, and I meant to say, too, that I really like that concept of the unauthorized use of language.
— John Woolley
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Post by markymark on Jul 27, 2005 17:44:24 GMT -6
I do not have a problem with citizens, including non-members of the MN, offering their opinions on party policy; in fact, I welcome a healthy debate. What I do have a problem with is when people point out a supposed inconsistency when there is no inconsistency. The section of our platform which states, "The Government of Talossa should promote the Talossan language wherever possible," is not inconsistent with any stance that my party or my administration has taken in regards to the Talossan language. We believe in the promotion of the language, however due to certain unfortunate circumstances, it is not possible to make some materials available online. Note the word POSSIBLE in the platform.
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Post by kri on Jul 28, 2005 12:16:17 GMT -6
> We believe in the promotion of the language, however due to certain unfortunate circumstances, it is not possible to make some materials available online. Note the word POSSIBLE in the platform.
Bravo. I couldn't have said it better. Thanks.
Ben
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King John
King of Talossa
Posts: 2,415
Talossan Since: 5-7-2005
Knight Since: 11-30-2005
Motto: COR UNUM
King Since: 3-14-2007
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Post by King John on Jul 28, 2005 12:29:37 GMT -6
The funny aspect of this "impossibility", of course, is that the only thing making it impossible is the refusal of the copyright-holder — the King! — to allow his books to be made easily available.
Of course it would be possible to put the books on-line. The MN and the King (who owns the books, and gets to make the call) apparently believe it would be unadvisable to post them. Fine, we disagree. But it's ... disingenous ... to use "It's impossible" to mean "I don't want to" or "I think it would be a bad idea".
— John Woolley
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Post by kri on Jul 28, 2005 12:58:56 GMT -6
It's impossible because I say it's impossible. Why are you so desperate to put our books into their hands? It really makes me wonder. Are you unable to use a book? Personally I'm much more comfortable looking something up in a book than straining my eyes at a 200-page PDF file. Ben
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Baron Fritz
Citizen since 12-7-2004; Knight since 11-30-2005
Posts: 575
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Post by Baron Fritz on Jul 28, 2005 13:05:05 GMT -6
I am really confused about all this "unathorized use of the language" stuff. I mean can languages be copyrighted? And is the idea to make the language more popular and used in a public forum or is it supposed be a secret language for use only in the Kingdom? Ben, you are the originator of this I believe. Could you explain it a little more to me? Thanks.
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