King John
King of Talossa
Posts: 2,415
Talossan Since: 5-7-2005
Knight Since: 11-30-2005
Motto: COR UNUM
King Since: 3-14-2007
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Post by King John on Jul 26, 2005 20:56:00 GMT -6
On the Black Hand web page, the MN, describing their political platform, says: In the MN, we're linguists. The Government of Talossa should promote the Talossan language wherever possible, and use Talossan as a recruiting tool to attract new citizens whose first or primary interest in Talossa will be our language and culture. Now I agree with this! But I have to ask, what has the MN done since they were elected to promote the language? Our webpages have no Dictionary, no Grammar, no "Larn Yerself Talossan" tutorial, no tables of verb conjugations, no extensive samples of the language, nowhere to write to get help learning the language ... nothing but a "Talossan Language Home Page", complete with just enough "historical" information to whet the appetite (but nowhere near enough to begin actually to learn the language). It says that "There is a 25,000 word dictionary and a 100-page official grammar of the language" — but the Dictionary and Grammar aren't available! The page has wonderful-looking links to the Talossan "Bookstore Page", the CÚG Page (the "Committee for the Use of the Language"), and Tomás Gariçéir's "Talossan Language Pages" — but all the links are broken, and none of the sites seems to exist any more! Meanwhile, the Republicans ("quitters") seem to be actually trying to "promote the Talossan language wherever possible, and use Talossan as a recruiting tool to attract new citizens". Why aren't we in the Kingdom doing this? Has the MN done anything? Why not? — John Woolley
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Post by kri on Jul 26, 2005 21:26:07 GMT -6
A word of advice -- as long as the CLP presents itself as a party that attacks Talossa as undemocratic and celebrates plagiarism, you are sure to get a small share of the vote but you will never be a majority party.
Ben
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Baron Fritz
Citizen since 12-7-2004; Knight since 11-30-2005
Posts: 575
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Post by Baron Fritz on Jul 27, 2005 6:13:47 GMT -6
John Woolley asks a very legitimate question of the MN and the King responds....and attacks the CLP? Where in the CLP policy or any official statement does the CLP say that Talossa is undemocratic? This is a party of multiple individuals with independent opinions. I have a word of advice for you Ben. If you want people to believe you are neutral and not attached to any party let the people run the kingdom, and the MN answer its own questions.
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King John
King of Talossa
Posts: 2,415
Talossan Since: 5-7-2005
Knight Since: 11-30-2005
Motto: COR UNUM
King Since: 3-14-2007
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Post by King John on Jul 27, 2005 7:33:52 GMT -6
Your Majesty, may I have your permission to post here, in public, my most recent private message to Your Majesty, and Your Majesty's gracious answer to it? Many thanks!
— John Woolley
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Post by kri on Jul 27, 2005 7:36:55 GMT -6
>Your Majesty, may I have your permission to post here, in public, my most recent private message to Your Majesty, and Your Majesty's gracious answer to it? Many thanks!
No, absolutely not. There is a purpose in remaining quiet over legal issues, thank you.
Ben
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Duke Ian von Metairia
Citizen 1-1983; Knight 7-1992; Count 2-23-2006; Duke 10-23-2006; struck out willingly :-(
Posts: 475
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Post by Duke Ian von Metairia on Jul 27, 2005 7:55:02 GMT -6
I guess you say "Black Hand" and the King reaches for his revolver! Anyway, Mr. Woolley's questions of the MN are legit and it would be nice to see a response from our MN PM, not our...ummm....politically unaffiliated and neutral and unbiased and unreproachable King. We have an election coming up, and it certainly is well within reason that a relatively new citizen would ask some serious questions of the languagep olicy of the country's leading political party! Sheesh!
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King John
King of Talossa
Posts: 2,415
Talossan Since: 5-7-2005
Knight Since: 11-30-2005
Motto: COR UNUM
King Since: 3-14-2007
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Post by King John on Jul 27, 2005 8:25:47 GMT -6
I asked: Your Majesty, may I have your permission to post here, in public, my most recent private message to Your Majesty, and Your Majesty's gracious answer to it? To which I was graced to receive this answer: No, absolutely not. There is a purpose in remaining quiet over legal issues, thank you. Which leaves me in rather an awkward position. I am at something of a loss to understand what legal secrets could possibly be compromised by the revelation of our recent brief correspondence, but presumably the King grasps matters of State Security better than I. (By the way, do we have a Ministry of State Security? I think we could find volunteers to staff it.) Can any "patriotic Talossans", besides His Majesty — Mr Prime Minster? Mr Chairman of the ZPT? Anyone? Bueller? —, point out to me anything I've written that is either disloyal or discourteous, or might merit a lifetime of enmity from patriotic Talossans ? (There are no legal secrets embedded in that quotation, I feel certain.) I'm beginning to think I don't have the ... subtlety? suspicion? paranoia? ... to deal adequately with these questions. Puzzled, — John Woolley
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Post by kri on Jul 27, 2005 8:32:37 GMT -6
>We have an election coming up, and it certainly is well within reason that a relatively new citizen would ask some serious questions of the language policy of the country's leading political party! Sheesh!
Well, I said nothing in my post about the MN, I was simply answering it from a different angle.
Once more, here is the skinny on the language:
1) The Scúrzniâ (grammar of the Talossan language) is being updated by Tomás Gariçéir. Unfortunately, since he has numerous real-world commitments and a new baby, he has not been able to finish the project yet. Any assistance would be appreciated.
2) The Treisoûr (dictionary of the Talossan language) is in similar limbo. I am in charge of this project, and there are still several thousand English words in the database for which no Talossan words have been derived, so the Treisoûr is in no position to be released. Any assistance would be appreciated. The new version of the dictionary is approximately twice the length of the old version, and the old version took ten years to complete.
3) The grammar and dictionary, both of which I hold the copyright to (as 97% of the work was mine), will never be published online in their entirety, because of unethical individuals out there on the internet who are reprinting our copyrighted material and using our copyrighted terms without the consent of the copyright holder. Instead, they will be made available in book form when they are completed.
4) The use of Talossan language materials by unauthorized individuals is plagiarism and copyright violation, and expressions of support for their work constitute grounds for pissing me off.
5) Arrangements will be made on a case-by-case basis to share the existing files (the incomplete grammar and dictionary), because half a book is better than none at all.
Ben
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King John
King of Talossa
Posts: 2,415
Talossan Since: 5-7-2005
Knight Since: 11-30-2005
Motto: COR UNUM
King Since: 3-14-2007
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Post by King John on Jul 27, 2005 8:40:45 GMT -6
3) The grammar and dictionary, both of which I hold the copyright to (as 97% of the work was mine), will never be published online in their entirety, because of unethical individuals out there on the internet who are reprinting our copyrighted material and using our copyrighted terms without the consent of the copyright holder. Instead, they will be made available in book form when they are completed. I see! (I think.) The King opposes the MN's platform-plank of promoting the Talossan language "wherever possible" and using Talossan "as a recruiting tool to attract new citizens". I'm curious to know what the MN thinks of this? — John Woolley
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Post by kri on Jul 27, 2005 8:41:23 GMT -6
> > >Your Majesty, may I have your permission to post here, in public, my most recent private message to Your Majesty, and Your Majesty's gracious answer to it?
> > No, absolutely not. There is a purpose in remaining quiet over legal issues, thank you.
>Which leaves me in rather an awkward position. I am at something of a loss to understand what legal secrets could possibly be compromised by the revelation of our recent brief correspondence, but presumably the King grasps matters of State Security better than I.
Unfortunately the language, like everything else, is now wrapped up in legal controversy because of the actions of a handful of totalitarian malcontents pretending to be Talossa on the internet.
> (By the way, do we have a Ministry of State Security? I think we could find volunteers to staff it.)
Long ago, we appointed an individual as the leader of our Secret Police. That individual is still alive, but does not know he (or she) was appointed. They could torture him (or her) for weeks and never get an honest confession!
>Can any "patriotic Talossans", besides His Majesty — Mr Prime Minster? Mr Chairman of the ZPT? Anyone? Bueller? —, point out to me anything I've written that is either disloyal or discourteous, or might merit "a lifetime of enmity from patriotic Talossans"?
When you go on Wittenberg and celebrate plagiarism, you do yourself and your party a disservice. I (and a few others, to a small degree) have put in thousands and thousands of hours, since 1980, on the Talossan language. Works on the Talossan language are copyrighted under US law and registered with the Library of Congress. When that work is used without our permission to promote some bizarre online hate cult, every patriotic Talossan is outraged. For you not to be outraged, tells me a lot.
(Aside: I realize that not everything every CLP member says is CLP policy, but unless I see it directly contradicted by other CLP members, I shall assume that it is. And by contradicted, I mean actual expressions of disagreement, not just a milquetoast statement "What he said is not official party policy." I get the feeling with the CLP that you can all be in agreement over something, but since it isn't in the platform, you can say "That isn't official policy" and then go on talking and voting like it is.)
Ultimately part of the solution to the problem is to do more with the language than others. But this attitude of internet people, that nothing is copyrighted, nothing is trademarked, and anything you see online is in the public domain, is flat-out wrong. Some of us have actually worked our butts (or fingers) off for Talossa and we want to see our work protected.
Ben
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Post by kri on Jul 27, 2005 8:44:29 GMT -6
>I see! (I think.) The King opposes the MN's platform-plank of promoting the Talossan language "wherever possible" and using Talossan "as a recruiting tool to attract new citizens".
Not at all. I wish the MN would put their platform into action. At the same time, for reasons which should be obvious to you, making the language materials available to the general public without any restrictions simply makes them available for plagiarism. Do you have a problem with making them available in book form?
Ben
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Baron Fritz
Citizen since 12-7-2004; Knight since 11-30-2005
Posts: 575
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Post by Baron Fritz on Jul 27, 2005 8:51:47 GMT -6
The CLP platform states that we support the legal rights of the Kingdom of Talossa and that includes it's trademark, copyright material. language, and so forth. While the MN has come forward in its platform it has done little or nothing to support and promote it. I agree with Ben in saying that it should be made availible in book form.
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Baron Fritz
Citizen since 12-7-2004; Knight since 11-30-2005
Posts: 575
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Post by Baron Fritz on Jul 27, 2005 8:52:21 GMT -6
The King has a revolver?
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King John
King of Talossa
Posts: 2,415
Talossan Since: 5-7-2005
Knight Since: 11-30-2005
Motto: COR UNUM
King Since: 3-14-2007
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Post by King John on Jul 27, 2005 8:53:36 GMT -6
4) The use of Talossan language materials by unauthorized individuals is plagiarism and copyright violation, and expressions of support for their work constitute grounds for pissing me off. Surely there's some confusion here? "Plagiarism" is claiming that someone else's writing is, in fact, your own. "Copyright violation" is to publish someone else's (copyrighted) work in a way that lowers its value to the rightful owner. Did anyone here "support" the "work" of any plagiarists or copyright violators? I sure didn't. I had googled for information on the Talossan language, and was deeply disappointed to see that, in spite of our government's stated policy of language promotion, most of the stuff that came up — including most of the actual use of the language — was on the websites of the Republican rebels. (For what it's worth, I saw neither plagiarism nor copyright violation, but I could easily have missed it.) I asked the government majority party for an explanation of why the Bad Guys (Republicans) were apparently doing the good work that the Good Guys (the legitimate MN government of Talossa) had said they would do, but didn't. — John Woolley
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Post by markymark on Jul 27, 2005 8:54:15 GMT -6
In section three of the interim platform of the Black Hand it states clearly that we support the Talossan language, including using the language as a recruiting tool for new citizens. This is something that the MN endorses. Not as much has been done to promote the language during my mandate as I would have liked, this is an area that requires more work.
Certain issues, beyond the control of my administration, have prevented some of the work on the language being completed. However, work has been done during my term by some dedicated citizens. Also, we now have a revived Office of National Names which should generate more interest in our language. To say that the MN has not done anything to promote the language is completely false. Of course, there is still plenty to be done, this shall be a focus of my next government.
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