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Post by gariceir on Dec 13, 2004 15:15:09 GMT -6
Azul à toct! As you know, I am scheduled to become a father around the second week of May. When the baby comes, I will have to resign my position as SoS, as I will have no Talossa time at all for some time following, for obvious reasons! So I'm giving you all fair warning now, so that you can be thinking about it for the next four months and find a suitable replacement.  Now, about recent Talossan language affairs. First off, I want to congratulate Ben on all his hard work and historic achievements (the Souter list, the dictionary supplement) in the development of the language. The Talossan language is growing tremendously due to Ben's tirelless efforts, and he deserves a huge round of thanks and applause from all of us, as the Talossan language is the cornerstone of Talossan culture! However, I feel the need to comment regarding recent events involving copyright and such, and I would like to start an official CÚG discussion regarding this. Ben is, of course, the holder of the copyright of the dictionary and the grammar. Recently a citizen of the Republic was found to have posted copies of the PDF files of those books on her website without Ben's consent, and Ben exercised his right as copyright holder to legally oblige her to remove said files; as he said in his Støtanneu article, " 'In case there is any doubt, I do not give my consent,' Madison stated. 'The Talossan language is a copyrighted project, and any use of Talossan language words or documents without the consent of the owner is prohibited under US and international law.' " Now while the books were copyrighted, and Ben has every right to control the distribution of his works, I cannot see how one can copyright a language. I don't see how the Talossan language itself can be copyrighted, anymore than the French language or the Gaelic language or any other language could be copyrighted, and even if it is possible to copyright a language, I would be absolutely against it on intellectual and moral grounds. What I am touching on here is the wellbeing and integrity of the language, which is of paramount importance to me personally, and to all of us as a nation. The Talossan language embodies our culture and our history, and we are the ones who should, and do, oversee its usage and development. However, for as long as I have been involved with Talossa (7+ years now), I have always promoted the study and use of the language world wide, regardless of micronational or macronational citizenship (which is, in my opinion, completely irrelevant to learning a language). In other words, while we actually create and develop the language, I firmly believe, and have always firmly believed, that anyone, anywhere in the world, Talossan or not, can and should be able to learn and use the language. I have always stood for this. To willfully prevent anyone from learning and using any language they want to, for whatever reason, goes against all that I believe in. This is where the copyright issue comes in, and why I would like to bring this issue up for discussion. Ben seems to want to prevent any non-Talossans -- thus, the majority of the world -- from learning and using the Talossan language. In my view, this poses a threat to the language's wellbeing, because there are people out there who want to use the language and who are using it. And the fact is that they will continue to use it regardless of Ben's opinions. The very real danger to the language is this: that if access to Talossan learning and reference materials is denied to all non-citizens of the Kingdom, then there will very likely be splits in the language, competing versions of Talossan will arise. If they can't learn proper Talossan usage, they will use the language improperly. If they cannot look up actual Talossan grammar and actual Talossan words, they will make up their own grammar and their own words. They are using the language whether we like it or not, and nothing will stop that. So as president of CÚG, I personally consider it absolutely imperative that as much material on the language as possible be made freely available to all. The wellbeing and integrity of the our beloved language is infintely more important than politics. If keeping our language whole and healthy and united and prosperous means letting people who aren't citizens of the Kingdom of Talossa learn it and use it, then let them! Infinitely better to do that than risk having the language schism into competing "Kingdom Talossan" versus "Republican Talossan" variants. Plus, as I said, my personal morals compel me to encourage and foster the study and use of Talossan on as wide a scale as possible, all over the world, though of course it goes without saying that my primary concern is doing so within Talossa itself. Ben does, as we know, hold the copyright to the dictionary and grammar, and had every right to have the unauthorised copies of the files removed from the offending website. However, I am asking Ben to permit the files to be made available on a Talossan website (I don't care whether it's mine, or his, or anyone else's) so that everyone can access them and the integrity of our language can be assured. I would like to know the opinions of other CÚG members on this issue. You know what I think. Now it's your turn to speak up and let me know what you think. |
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Post by markymark on Dec 13, 2004 16:01:31 GMT -6
Unfortunately, my knowledge of the Talossan language is very limited; however, it is my desire for as many people as possible to speak our language. That being said, I have problems with the republic acting as thought the language was their language; when it clearly belongs to Talossa.
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Post by kri on Dec 13, 2004 20:55:30 GMT -6
Marcüs Cantaloûr wrote: >Unfortunately, my knowledge of the Talossan language is very limited; however, it is my desire for as many people as possible to speak our language. That being said, I have problems with the republic acting as thought the language was their language; when it clearly belongs to Talossa. That, to me, is the central issue. The Talossan language is not an abstraction; it is a central part of Talossanity, and Talossanity is defined by the Organic Law. Citizens of the Kingdom of Talossa are Talossans. Everybody else is not a Talossan. The Talossan language was created not as an amorphous conlang project for the world. It is not Esperanto. It was created for one purpose and one purpose only: to give a linguistic identity to the Kingdom of Talossa. It is a language for Talossans only, not for Penguineans. One cannot honestly or legitimately embrace the Talossan language while despising and reviling the community that gave birth to and owns it. To do so is simply to parody the language. It is like learning Hebrew and hating Jews.The language and the Kingdom are inseparable. The language is ours. The language is part of an identity that includes political citizenship in the Kingdom of Talossa. You are not a Talossan unless the Organic Law of the Kingdom of Talossa says you are, and Penguineans are not Talossans. The founding document of the Talossan language itself, written twenty-four years ago today (!), establishes this fact: "The Talossan language... is spoken only by the tiny population of the Kingdom of Talossa." (R. Ben Madison, "'N Reporteu d'Academieu d'Talossa," 13 December 1980, in Talossan National Archives, Box 1, Folder 1.) This has not changed. The solution is not for these people to create some deviant, bastardized corruption of our language. It is for them to leave our language and identity to us, and for them to do the right thing, and simply end this stupid conflict by moving off on their own, abandoning everything Talossan, and creating their own micronation with its own language, if they choose to have a language. Heck, "Penguijnixtunq" or whatever the heck it was called, already exists for them to use, and I don't have a copyright on it. An illegal, unconstitutional, amoral parody of Talossa does not advance the cause of the Talossan language. Tomás and I are working on a vast expansion of the Talossan dictionary which, if present trends continue, can never be published in digital form for fear of having it stolen and plagiarized. Violations of our copyrights block the spread of the language, not promote it. The people involved can solve every legal, constitutional and moral problem they have created, can instantly repair friendships, and can restore mutual respect, by a few simple strokes on the keyboard: Give up the name "Talossa," give up the Talossan language, sell us back our domain names at cost, move out on your own, do your own thing, and obey the commandment, "Thou shalt not steal." And people who really love the Talossan language, and who are willing to abide by the constitutional and democratic laws of the Kingdom it represents, and not evade or violate them, and who respect the rights and equality of every Talossan citizen, are more than welcome to join us or rejoin us and work with us on the language together. Ben P.S. Thanks for the info on the Secretary of State's job, if all else fails, I am willing to take on the burden myself. Thanks for your help, and best of luck with the offspring! |
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Post by seahobbit on Dec 14, 2004 16:04:20 GMT -6
I think i should say my two cents worth here. First, the SoS position, while I cannot be always available and ready to intervene as is required for a SoS. I am willing to assist in setting up a website and/or other duties to facilitate the distribution of information from the SoS office. In addition I am willing to take on the duties of Scribe of Abbavilla, a position once separate from the SoS, but joined by M-P shortly before the last election. The Scribe's duties are to maintain the current official version of the OrgLaw and I currently still have the last official version at www.moisan.ca/talossa/97OrgLaw.pdf. Regarding the Talossan language, I agree with Tomás, you cannot copyright a language. As such we cannot forbid anyone from learning, using or teaching Talossan (Why would we want to anyway?). However, the publication and distribution of books that are copyrighted (i.e. dictionary, grammar, etc.) is the sole prerogative of the copyright holder. They cannot publish the books or abstract of them without Ben's consent as per applicable copyright laws. Cheers, Marc Moisan, C.D. |
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Post by kri on Dec 14, 2004 17:25:19 GMT -6
> The Scribe's duties are to maintain the current official version of the OrgLaw and I currently still have the last official version at www.moisan.ca/talossa/97OrgLaw.pdf. I forgot about that-- this is good to know! > Regarding the Talossan language, I agree with Tomás, you cannot copyright a language. As such we cannot forbid anyone from learning, using or teaching Talossan (Why would we want to anyway?). These are two separate issues. No, we can't stop anyone from learning Talossan. But, "using" and "teaching" are bound up with copyright issues, and in point of fact, you can copyright a language. There is a difference between 'international' conlangs like Esperanto and Interlingua, which by their very nature are meant to be the property of everybody who uses them, and 'artistic' (for want of a better word) conlangs which are designed as adjuncts to promote some other project. Two famous examples: Klingon and Elvish. Nobody can publish a textbook or grammar of Klingon, even if they write it themselves, without infringing on the copyright held by Paramount Pictures' Star Trek franchise. Likewise, you can't publish books to teach Elvish without permission from the estate of J.R.R. Tolkien. Technically, you cannot even "use" these languages without the permission of the designers or their estates or employers. The same is true of Talossan. The word "päts" meaning 'country' is a copyrighted term, it forms part of a copyrighted work. You can't write a novel set in the old South with "Scarlett O'Hara" as the lead character because her name is a small part of a larger copyrighted work. > However, the publication and distribution of books that are copyrighted (i.e. dictionary, grammar, etc.) is the sole prerogative of the copyright holder. They cannot publish the books or abstract of them without Ben's consent as per applicable copyright laws. And that's where the issue really gets dirty. Remember, seven years ago when they set up Penguinea, Anthony Lawless denounced and derided the Talossan language as being "boring". Indeed, one of the main reasons they set up Penguinea in 1997 was because Lawless and Gallagher wanted to create an alternative language (some stupid hybrid of Japanese and Icelandic) for their fictitious Antarctic "inhabitants" that they were trying to foist onto Talossan culture. They have no serious interest in the Talossan language. What they do have interest in, is identity theft. And, these people aren't stupid; they know that historically, the Talossan language has been one of the biggest "draws" for Talossa to obtain new citizens. Stealing the Talossan language is just a tool they've decided to use as an advertising technique. Like the successful brand-name "Talossa" that they are illegally using, our language is something they think they can use to attract attention for themselves. As I said above, they could end all the fighting by simply not copying our stuff, plagiarizing our works, and using our name. But since fighting us is all that defines them, don't expect that anytime soon. Their neo-Penguinea is all about "what we can get away with," not "what we can build on our own." Ben |
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Post by gariceir on Dec 15, 2004 8:23:23 GMT -6
...It is my desire for as many people as possible to speak our language. I absolutely agree with you. This has always been my opinion, and also the motivation behind every Talossan web page, article, or other project I have ever undertaken. I just do not believe, and have never believed, that only citizens of the Kingdom of Talossa should be allowed to use the language. I have always wanted to see as many people as possible throughout the whole world learning and using it. Hopefully those people will be interested enough by it to become Talossans, as I was, but even if they don't I still prefer to have them learning and using our beautiful language than not learning or using it. Of course it belongs to us -- and it embodies our culture and history. We are the ones who created it, and who continue to develop it. Everyone else who learns the language has to accept it and use it as it is -- they can and should use it, but do not have a say in developing it; that privilege belongs only to us. But far better to make Talossan learning and reference materials freely available so that anyone can learn it, than to risk schisms and divisions in the language due to refusing people who want to learn it the opportunity to learn it. |
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Post by gariceir on Dec 15, 2004 8:47:06 GMT -6
The Talossan language is not an abstraction; it is a central part of Talossanity, and Talossanity is defined by the Organic Law. Citizens of the Kingdom of Talossa are Talossans. Everybody else is not a Talossan. Of course. I agree with you completely. But that does not mean than non-Talossans should be refused the opportunity to learn and use Talossan. Gaelic is a central part of Gaeldom, the defining aspect of what makes a Gael a Gael. Should I have been denied the opportunity to learn Gaelic because I am not a Gael? Of course not -- that would be ludicrous. Absolutely. And this is where I completely, totally disagree with you. Statements like this are utterly ridiculous and go against everything I believe in. Languages may be said to belong to their nations, they embody their cultures, but languages are for everybody. Is Gaelic only for Gaels? Is Icelandic only for Icelanders? Of course not. Anybody should be able to learn or use a language -- they just don't get to define it or say how it should be. That is a silly statement. First of all, since we're talking about the so-called "Republic of Talossa" here in particular, no longer speaking generally, I can tell you for certain that they do not despise or revile the Kingdom. They may despise or revile certain individuals within the Kingdom, but that is manifestly not the same thing. If I hate certain people who happen to be Jewish, does that make me an anti-Semite? Should it mean that I should not be allowed to learn Hebrew? Of course not, and it would be ridiculous to suggest so. Absolutely right! And this is exactly what I am trying to prevent, but which your position will inevitably ensure. If they want to learn and use Talossan, let them. The worst thing that can happen if we let them is that there will be a lot more stuff written in Talossan out there, and that is most absolutely not a bad thing! Quite the opposite, in fact. Actually the worst thing that could happen would be that they might produce more Talossan-language documents than we do, and so what? That should just spur us to create more of our own. Your position here reminds me of your position in the Adgate scandal a couple of years back -- the GCP put a bunch of ads in the ad queue, and instead of making more ads of your own to match or outdo us, you complained about how many ads we had and said we were being unfair, and that we should not be allowed to have all those ads. Simply illogical. That is an untrue statement, and it would be a truly say day for Talossa and the Talossan language if you were to make it so. It would not be stolen or plagiarized, merely learnt and made use of. Not the same thing at all. No, refusing the vast majority of humankind (i.e. everyone who is not a citizen of the Kingdom of Talossa, and even those Talossan citizens of whom you might not approve for some reason) the opportunity to learn and use Talossan is what will block its spread. There are no more copyright violations, as the offender has removed the files. But learning and using a language is i no way a violation of copyright. |
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Post by gariceir on Dec 15, 2004 8:51:19 GMT -6
First, the SoS position, while I cannot be always available and ready to intervene as is required for a SoS. I am willing to assist in setting up a website and/or other duties to facilitate the distribution of information from the SoS office. In addition I am willing to take on the duties of Scribe of Abbavilla. Thank you Marc! Your offer is greatly appreciated. Absolutely. This is exactly my position. |
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Post by kri on Dec 15, 2004 8:58:47 GMT -6
Azul! > I just do not believe, and have never believed, that only citizens of the Kingdom of Talossa should be allowed to use the language. The issue here is not their "using" the language, it's their "using" the language in order to draw people over to an illegal rival project. They aren't doing anything in the abstract. It isn't a question of them appreciating what we've done in a neutral, scholarly way. They see the Talossan language as an advertising tool. We see it as the core of our identity as citizens of the only real Talossa. While it would be nice to have the Talossan language as something totally removed from politics, it just isn't that way right now. The language is part of a communal identity defined by the Organic Law. And on a personal level, I will not allow my copyrighted work to be used by people who are trying to destroy everything else I've worked on for twenty-five years, and neither should you.  > I have always wanted to see as many people as possible throughout the whole world learning and using it. Hopefully those people will be interested enough by it to become Talossans, as I was, but even if they don't I still prefer to have them learning and using our beautiful language than not learning or using it. I have no problem with people learning and using the language either, unless they're trying to destroy the Kingdom of Talossa, steal our identity, rob us of our name, hijack our websites, or deny us the web presence that hundreds of people around the world gave us by linking to what was our website. Neutral outsiders wanting to learn Talossan, and who might be interested to join Talossa because of it? Great! More power to 'em. But the neo-Penguineans are not neutral outsiders. They are stealing our language and using it as a lever to take us down. That is not love of the language. > > Quote:That being said, I have problems with the republic acting as thought the language was their language; when it clearly belongs to Talossa. > Of course it belongs to us -- and it embodies our culture and history. We are the ones who created it, and who continue to develop it. Everyone else who learns the language has to accept it and use it as it is -- they can and should use it, but do not have a say in developing it; that privilege belongs only to us. I think I understand where you're coming from, but they've presented us with a Hobson's choice. Either we a) continue to spend gigantic amounts of time working on the language so they can use it, or b) they will further steal and plagiarize our materials and eventually start producing words and grammatical forms of their own, thus breaking up the language into competing forms. Neither one of those options is particularly appealing. I don't work for the Penguineans, Tomás. > But far better to make Talossan learning and reference materials freely available so that anyone can learn it, than to risk schisms and divisions in the language due to refusing people who want to learn it the opportunity to learn it. If they insist on stealing, there is frankly nothing we can do, except to keep monitoring the 'net and writing letters to their ISPs. A lot of slang deriding Penguineans has already entered our vocabulary (eu fost irë scriuarë àls Pengátschen!); and the current batch of sore loser quitters is sure to inspire a few terms in our new dictionary as well, in the spirit of N.J.A. Williams and his digs at "Kennywek." What are they going to do, delete it all? At best, every single page of the new Treisoûr will have to have a link to Talossa's websites, to make absolutely certain that people abroad are not misled or defrauded. And that is an absolute minimum. The moral of the story is this: Ethical people don't break the law. Unethical people don't break the law, if they think they'll get caught. Ben |
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Post by gariceir on Dec 15, 2004 9:10:02 GMT -6
No, we can't stop anyone from learning Talossan. But, "using" and "teaching" are bound up with copyright issues I don't see how, other than inasmuch as copyright affects, say, the textbook you use. If that is true, it is sad. I absolutely hope that never becomes the case. [quoteTwo famous examples: Klingon and Elvish. Nobody can publish a textbook or grammar of Klingon, even if they write it themselves, without infringing on the copyright held by Paramount Pictures' Star Trek franchise. Likewise, you can't publish books to teach Elvish without permission from the estate of J.R.R. Tolkien.[/quote] Are you really saying that you regard Talossa as a work of fiction and a commodity to be sold, like Star Trek and the Lord of the Rings? That's not how I view Talossa. This is getting ridiculous! I own dictionaries of dozens of dictionaries, all of which are copyrighted works. Is that to mean that if I use a word in any of those dictionaries in my own speech or writing then I am in violation of copyright? Come on. Actually, they do. And my personal mission for as long as I have been in Talossa has been to promote the language and help people learn it. I do not care what actual nation a person interested in Talossan belongs to, or what "micronations", if any, he or she belongs to. I foster interest in and the learning of the Talossa language all over the world, and I always have. You used to, too. However, if that is no longer compatible with today's Talossa, then neither am I. One other consideration: the language has always been a big "draw", a factor which has brought many citizens past and present -- myself included, of course! -- to Talossa. If you refuse to make any materials on the language available for fear that certain "undesirables" might also learn it, then you are automatically cutting off a very significant pool of potential Talossan citizens. |
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Post by kri on Dec 15, 2004 13:04:34 GMT -6
Azul,
In one part, you're absolutely right -- cutting off access to the language would carry enormous risks.
> That is a silly statement. First of all, since we're talking about the so-called "Republic of Talossa" here in particular, no longer speaking generally, I can tell you for certain that they do not despise or revile the Kingdom.
No, that's just not the case, I'm afraid. You don't quit the Kingdom because you like the Kingdom. They could have stayed, and pushed through normal constitutional means to have me, my friends, my family, and anybody else who likes me, thrown out. But of course, that's just about everybody, and you don't win elections in a democracy by pissing everybody off.
If they "do not despise or revile the Kingdom," why have they cut off all the Kingdom's web links?
If they were honestly Talossans, they would bear with the political defeat for the sake of loyalty, the same reason 99.999% of Kerry supporters aren't packing up and moving to Canada. But they're whiners and sore losers.
>They may despise or revile certain individuals within the Kingdom, but that is manifestly not the same thing.
Then why did they leave the Kingdom, steal our name, cut off our web links, and vow "never" to be a part of "any Talossa" (like they have the right to pick and choose their Talossas?) where all Talossans were allowed to participate?
If you're right, then they would all be here, running an anti-Ben party in Talossa's elections, and they would be emotionally mature enough to live with defeat.
>If I hate certain people who happen to be Jewish, does that make me an anti-Semite?
If you cut off all ties with organized Judaism, hack into the websites of the State of Israel to put out some silly claim that you're the "Real Israel," steal and plagiarize the works of Jewish scholars to vindicate your claim, pull in a few people who were never Jewish to bolster your claims of being the "true" Jews, I think a lot of Jews would take issue with this, and see such a group using the Hebrew language as an insult.
Why are we arguing about this? It's what they want, not what we want. They feed off this stuff. They need conflict, they need us fighting with each other. But I will not work for them. Unless, of course, they drop all this horse-crap and come back.
The moment we all unite and protect each other, and stop fighting with each other about what they're saying and doing, and present a united front and work to reclaim our identity, the "republic" dies. Remember Penguinea? Once we stopped fighting with them, their inherent self-hatred consumed them.
We have so many better things to do in Talossa!
Ben
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Post by seahobbit on Dec 15, 2004 15:12:37 GMT -6
But, "using" and "teaching" are bound up with copyright issues, and in point of fact, you can copyright a language. [/b][/quote] Really??? I would check out 17 U.S.C. 102(b), it states that the original and creative word sequences in a text are protected by copyright, but a writing style itself is in the public domain, no matter how original it is. I can assure you that you can write a book in Klingon or Elvish, or about those languages without copyright infringement, many have done so actually. This has been fought in Courts regarding programming languages, while a specific code can be copyrighted a programming language cannot, the same applies with spoken languages. The key is to ensure that any books written in or about the Talossan language is not simply a copy of one of yours and that if they use your book as a source that they make mention of it. I am afraid Ben that you are wrong and Tomás is right, you cannot copyright a language. As for the attitudes of the members of the pseudo-republic of Talossa, I agree with you. Tomás is wrong to think that they have any legitimate friendly intention towards the Kingdom. They have usurped the Talossa name for their nationette simply to get the publicity and be able to claim the history and culture that is the result of 25 years of nation building. Instead of trying to rally Talossan to their cause, to fight for what they want within the system, they choose to leave and create their own little word and in doing so plagiarised what they liked about Talossa. What they didn't like was that some citizen weren't online, to them they didn't exists. They have been convinced despite efforts to prove them wrong that Talossa's King was an absolute dictator. Well, I wish them luck (really!) because when they get a crisis in their new nationette and that republic gets split because some group suddenly thinks the president (dean or whatever) is a dictator and they can't get their way, they'll understand that true nationbuilding is about making something happen the right way, not the childish way. Patience and propaganda are keys of successful politics. Enough ranting about that anyway, there is only 10 days left before Talossa's Silver Jubilee and nobody's spoiling my party.  Marc Moisan, C.D. |
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Post by kri on Dec 15, 2004 15:55:25 GMT -6
> Really I would check out 17 U.S.C. 102(b), it states that the original and creative word sequences in a text are protected by copyright, but a writing style itself is in the public domain, no matter how original it is. I can assure you that you can write a book in Klingon or Elvish, or about those languages without copyright infringement, many have done so actually. That's not what I found, but in matters of law, reasonable minds can disagree. The issue here is not really law, but ethics. Although I think the law is on our side. It's why, for instance, there was a schism between Loglan and Lojban, two constructed languages. Loglan was a language, its author copyrighted it, and some users didn't like the way he was developing the language, so they fought him for control of it, and were forced to back down and design their own language, called Lojban. > As for the attitudes of the members of the pseudo-republic of Talossa, I agree with you. Well thanks. If people meet me half way, I can be reasonable! > Tomás is wrong to think that they have any legitimate friendly intention towards the Kingdom. They have usurped the Talossa name for their nationette simply to get the publicity and be able to claim the history and culture that is the result of 25 years of nation building. What I find so amusing about all this, in the context of the language debate, is this. Marti-Pair Furxheir claims that he has the exclusive right to Talossa as an online presence, because of the 'thousands of hours' he put into designing web pages (in the capacity of Secretary of State of the Kingdom of Talossa, of course--imagine if the HHS Secretary in the US claimed personal ownership of tons of flu virus he negotiated to get from Canada!). The neo-Penguineans then turn around and claim that I have no intellectual property rights to the language that I spent even more time working on! It's a simple fact that I have personally spent way more time working on the Talossan language than Furxheir ever did working on his websites. Way back when, in the 1980s, I literally was spending twelve hours a day for days on end working on the language, whether it was typing, or doing research at the library. And the neo-Penguineans never spent the cash to fly to Sardinia or the Rumantsch country to collect dictionaries for use on the Talossan language. And now they claim equal rights to my work. Ah, but consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds. > Instead of trying to rally Talossans to their cause, to fight for what they want within the system, they choose to leave and create their own little world and in doing so plagiarised what they liked about Talossa. I think everybody understands that they're just a bunch of pathetic, selfish Alec Baldwins who lost an election and swore they would "never" live in a country unless they themselves are allowed to dictate who the country's citizens are. > What they didn't like was that some citizen weren't online, to them they didn't exists. But it was worse than that. To them, any Cybercit who wasn't a supporter of theirs was also a "pocket vote." (Notice how in all the debates about "pocket votes" going back to 1996, no critic of "pocket votes" has ever actually defined the term, or identified which specific individuals were "pocket votes"?) BTW, as I define it, a "pocket vote" is someone who became part of Talossa in the days before we had an actual immigration procedure and never actually "did" anything (like take a test) to qualify for citizenship, and has absolutely no contact with Talossa beyond voting when asked to vote. By that definition, there are exactly three "pocket votes" in Talossa: My dad, my sister, and Jean Williams. Three people, out of a total population before the split of about 45. > They have been convinced despite efforts to prove them wrong that Talossa's King was an absolute dictator. The hilarious part of this, is that the Black Hand lost its first two elections. And in the first one, the January 2003 election, the PC actually did a better job rallying the so-called "pocket votes" than the MN did. Turns out they were a fluid, persuadable electorate after all, which is why the PC got more votes than the MN (not even including the Grey Party) in that election. The MN was out-talked and out-campaigned in January 2003. The only reason the MN got a majority in the June '04 election, is the PC forced the issue: "Vote PC and we'll start kicking people out." Well, the majority didn't want people kicked out, so they rallied around the one party that looked like it could make sure that didn't happen. > Well, I wish them luck (really!) because when they get a crisis in their new nationette and that republic gets split because some group suddenly thinks the president (dean or whatever) is a dictator and they can't get their way, they'll understand that true nationbuilding is about making something happen the right way, not the childish way. Patience and propaganda are keys of successful politics. What they have to learn, is that in ANY growing human community, whether it's a church, a nation, the Rotary Club, or Talossa, there is simply always going to be a core group of people who have been there longer, have more experience, and have more connections. For better or worse, I'm in that group. Come into any group and start talking about kicking the founders out, and you're going to have trouble. The difference is, my instinct is to try and persuade people to see my point of view. Their instinct is to cancel people's accounts and kick members out. This is why Talossa will succeed in the long run. Authoritarian regimes always display brilliant bursts of energy and can mobilize the masses successfully -- but only for a short time. And when the entire society consists of people who are predisposed to expulsion and quitting as their highest ideals, it is only a matter of time. > Enough ranting about that anyway, there is only 10 days left before Talossa's Silver Jubilee and nobody's spoiling my party. Hallelujah! Ben |
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Post by gariceir on Dec 15, 2004 19:56:28 GMT -6
I'm not going to get into a political argument here, my sole concern is the language and its well-being.
I truly believe that cutting off all access to the language outside the Kingdom carries enormous risks that are simply not worth it. Not only do we risk losing a significant number of potential citizens who would come to us because of the language, but we risk causing schisms and the creation of competing "varieties" or "dialects" Talossan at the hands of certain people who want to use the language so badly that they would rather create their own derivative of Talossan than not learn the language. That would cause irreparable harm.
So it is infinitely preferable to just put the material out there for anybody to use, no matter where they may be from, where they live, or what their other hobbies or activities are. Let anybody and everybody learn and use authentic, real Talossan, and ensure that we never lose any language-oriented future citizens, and that no "alternative" versions of the language ever arise. We should just keep working on the language and making the material freely available.
As for the copyright violation issue, the only violation of copyright I am aware of has been fixed -- a certain person was making the material available on her website without our permission, and the files have been removed (as far as I know, at least) -- so the issue is now moot, and we should not be arguing about it. We should just be continuing to work on the language, regardless of who else out there might be making use of them. As long as they are speaking and writing correct, real Talossan, it does not matter who they are or what they are doing.
I'm afraid I must be insistent about this, as it is my extremely deep, life-long conviction that no one should ever be denied the opportunity to learn and use any language that he or she may be interested in, no matter what. Nationality, etc. is totally irrelevant to that. Everything I have ever done for Talossan, in all the years I have been in Talossa, I have done in order to share Talossan with the world. And if we become so bent on preventing a few people that some of us don't personally like from ever speaking or writing a word of the language that we cut it off from the entire outside world, then it seriously will not be worth it for me anymore. It's that simple. I love Talossa deeply, I love the Talossan language deeply, but I will not betray my deepest moral convictions and what I know to be right.
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Post by kri on Dec 16, 2004 19:06:42 GMT -6
> As for the copyright violation issue, the only violation of copyright I am aware of has been fixed
Well, they have arrogantly gone and registered "talossan-language.com" as one of their domain names. Why? So that anyone searching for the Talossan language is directed to their group.
Ben
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