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Post by Owen Edwards on Jan 29, 2008 8:26:55 GMT -6
Mick, is that the only kind of voting we have in Talossa?
Does factfinding immediately lead to secret voting in the Cosa?
I think the Seneschal and Senator Holmes have overreacted somewhat. As you've said, factfinding is unproblematic and could lead to interesting results.
If a Bill were brought seeking to introduce secret balloting for either the national vote or the Cosa, I would oppose it - but I see no problem with investigating and evaluating.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2008 8:49:57 GMT -6
Owen, question, if you know you are going to oppose it, why waste valuable Talossan time researching it? Your mind is already made up.
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Post by Owen Edwards on Jan 29, 2008 9:00:36 GMT -6
I more meant, if a Bill was introduced NOW proposing changes.
As for investigation: For the better enlightenment of myself, and many. Several people DO support the concept, and would feel that research is needed - and I think understanding methods might change some minds anyway, as far as those who oppose it on issues of trust etc.
I am certainly willing to look at the results and consider how general election balloting might be improved by secret balloting - if the results of the investigation demonstrate it would be safe, efficacious and improve freedom of conscience.
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Capt. Sir Mick Preston
Capitán of the Zouaves
Posts: 6,511
Talossan Since: 9-21-2006
Knight Since: 10-12-2010
Motto: Cuimhnichibh air na daoine bho'n d'thainig sibh
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Post by Capt. Sir Mick Preston on Jan 29, 2008 9:10:30 GMT -6
No, Owen- of course we have more than just Ziu voting.
I was just chiming in on one section of "Secret Balloting" that I am already firmly opposed to.
Now, as for General Elections- I'll let the fact finding commission with their results before I again offer my opinion.
(smiles)
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Post by speechguy on Jan 29, 2008 10:29:24 GMT -6
Much seriousness abounds on this issue...again I'm not aware of all the backstory on the split and all but it has always been my view that open voting gave me a chance to be silly. And I love being silly. I love to talk one way and vote another...and if it's secret no one will get the joke! So I ask those who are proposing this effort...please repeat the need for it to me in a slow, speaking-to-the-elderly manner so I may understand...
Thanks
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Jan 29, 2008 11:11:45 GMT -6
I don't think anyone supports a secret vote for clarks... that would be dangerous and foolish. It was my understanding we were ONLY even gathering information about the general election's possibilities. We should oppose a secret clark not just on the practical grounds that mostly stymie secret GE's, but also for the reasons given above. Our representatives must represent, visibly.
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Sir C. M. Siervicül
Posts: 9,636
Talossan Since: 8-13-2005
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Motto: Nonnisi Deo serviendum
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Post by Sir C. M. Siervicül on Jan 29, 2008 11:21:06 GMT -6
I don't think anyone supports a secret vote for clarks... that would be dangerous and foolish. It was my understanding we were ONLY even gathering information about the general election's possibilities. We should oppose a secret clark not just on the practical grounds that mostly stymie secret GE's, but also for the reasons given above. Our representatives must represent, visibly. FWIW, back when immigration required a Cosa vote, MCs voted by secret ballot on immigration bills. For a while, at least. Today, the President of Israel is elected by the Knesset (Israel's legislature) by secret ballot. I'm not advocating the return of secret balloting in the Ziu for any purpose, just giving some historical information.
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Xhorxh Asmour
Talossan since 02-21-2003
Wot? Me, worry?
Posts: 1,754
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Post by Xhorxh Asmour on Jan 29, 2008 12:45:00 GMT -6
I strongly oppose the secret ballot and find this factfinding thing completely pointless. The open ballot is more honest and even more mature. If you're afraid of hurting your friends' feelings then it's only probable that you don't actually discuss everything important with them. No one here should fear peer pressure and no one should be afraid of fighting for their own principles. If the majority has voted YES, for example, and you voted NO, that's no reason for killing yourself. Keep trying or whatever. Don't dig a hole in the ground and hide your head there. And don't buy a one-way ticket to Pengopäts!
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EM Vürinalt
Citizen since 12-20-2007
Parletz, am?c, en entrez
Posts: 979
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Post by EM Vürinalt on Jan 29, 2008 16:28:40 GMT -6
Agreed.
I'd like to add that the open ballot system makes Talossa more quirky in nature.
There is nothing wrong with investigating the benifits of closed ballot systems, it's only an investigation. Much like the whole steroids and baseball thing-it's an investigation, it doesn't mean something will change.
I support an investigation, but do not support implimentation of a closed ballot system.
Sure, with a closed ballot system you won't feel guilty when you vote against your party, but with an open party system, you have the chance for immediate discussion on particular votes, catching voting errors faster (since everybody will see them), and not having to explain yourself over and over again should somebody peskily ask "what did you vote for."
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Feb 5, 2008 21:51:18 GMT -6
What is the status of this legislation?
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Post by Dréu Gavárþic'h on Feb 6, 2008 6:08:16 GMT -6
It will be submitted to be clarked. I feel it is imperative.
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Post by Owen Edwards on Feb 6, 2008 8:32:21 GMT -6
Dreu, I haven't checked yet, but have the changes discussed here been implemented? The LRT backs the Bill, WITH proposed changes.
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Capt. Sir Mick Preston
Capitán of the Zouaves
Posts: 6,511
Talossan Since: 9-21-2006
Knight Since: 10-12-2010
Motto: Cuimhnichibh air na daoine bho'n d'thainig sibh
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Post by Capt. Sir Mick Preston on Feb 6, 2008 8:38:29 GMT -6
Owen, this is the current wording of the bill:
"WHEREAS the Kingdom of Talossa has always had a public ballot, and
WHEREAS more information is needed on whether or not secret ballots are plausible, and
WHEREAS a fact-finding team would be best for this, now
THEREFORE we form a committee of three people (to be assigned by the Seneschal) to go on a fact-finding mission, to investigate the plausibility of a secret ballot, and report back to the Ziu. "
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Post by Owen Edwards on Feb 6, 2008 8:48:48 GMT -6
Thanks Mick. I'll comment later when I have more time!
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Post by Breneir Itravilatx on Feb 6, 2008 9:14:32 GMT -6
I realize that I find myself in the minority but I am actually in support of a secret ballot in our general elections. I look forward to moving beyond investigation.
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