Ián Tamorán S.H.
Chief Justice of the Uppermost Court
Proud Philosopher of Talossa
Posts: 1,401
Talossan Since: 9-27-2010
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Post by Ián Tamorán S.H. on Dec 6, 2019 10:26:45 GMT -6
As we discuss new laws we should remember Tacitus: Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges "The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the government."
...remembering that this too may be the perception of our visitors and prospective citizens.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Dec 6, 2019 12:49:01 GMT -6
Question: Why require an oath as to their statements' veracity? Let me be 100% frank. I have evidence leading me to believe that certain currently active Talossans have gained their citizenship under a false name - in other words, we have an "I. P Freely" or a "Biggus Dickus" active in Talossa, irrespective of whether they are a good citizen or not. There was not a sufficient indication at immigration that they had to give their real, "street name", so they simply didn't do so. I am not really interested in prosecuting or kicking out these Talossans - I will leave "coming clean" to their conscience. But I am open to any procedures to make sure this never happens again. Yes, when suspecting something, when the prospective gives the name of "Guy Incognito", "Hugh Jass" or similar. If we don't trust the judgment of Ministers then there's no point in doing anything ever.
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Ian Plätschisch
Senator for Maritiimi-Maxhestic
Posts: 4,001
Talossan Since: 3-21-2015
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Post by Ian Plätschisch on Dec 9, 2019 10:00:23 GMT -6
in other words, we have a "Biggus Dickus" active in Talossa That was his real name!
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Dec 9, 2019 13:07:52 GMT -6
in other words, we have a "Biggus Dickus" active in Talossa That was his real name! He has a wife, you know.
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Post by E.S. Bornatfiglheu on Dec 9, 2019 17:27:31 GMT -6
Question: Why require an oath as to their statements' veracity? Let me be 100% frank. I have evidence leading me to believe that certain currently active Talossans have gained their citizenship under a false name - in other words, we have an "I. P Freely" or a "Biggus Dickus" active in Talossa, irrespective of whether they are a good citizen or not. My question here is, "Why does this particularly matter?" If they are functioning under one name, why should we be overly concerned what it is?
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Dec 9, 2019 17:49:25 GMT -6
My question here is, "Why does this particularly matter?" If they are functioning under one name, why should we be overly concerned what it is? It is difficult to know where to start with that. Talossa establishing that every single person here is a real person who can be identified in the real world is what separates our "simulated nation" from a role-playing game. We must distinguish this bill from the existing law, which is pretty clear already: This bill would only add teeth to the existing statute, since it seems that at least one citizen has taken it as more of a suggestion than a law. The Attorney-General is as we speak deciding whether to prosecute the case which provoked this bill. Talossa is not the US, and "so what if it's against the law" is not an argument which we should take seriously for a moment.
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Post by E.S. Bornatfiglheu on Dec 9, 2019 18:13:41 GMT -6
My question here is, "Why does this particularly matter?" If they are functioning under one name, why should we be overly concerned what it is? It is difficult to know where to start with that. Talossa establishing that every single person here is a real person who can be identified in the real world is what separates our "simulated nation" from a role-playing game. Identifying that they are a single, real person is indeed important. I know that better than just about anyone.
But, again, what does it matter what they call themselves? That's my specific point here.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Dec 9, 2019 18:18:51 GMT -6
But, again, what does it matter what they call themselves? That's my specific point here. How can we identify if anyone is a single, real person if they don't tell us the name by which they go in their daily life, even if they don't use it in Talossa? We have enough problems as it stands with people acting like forâs da ciùl in Talossa because they think of it as something separate from their real lives, in which there are consequences for action. Imagine - for example - if Iusti Canún had not given us his real name. We might never have known why he suddenly "disappeared". I stand by the Penny Arcade "GIF" Theorem: Anonymity in this context means not giving your real name at immigration. If you want to propose a law removing the requirement for someone to provide their real contact details at immigration, be my guest, but it's the law right now, and IMHO a necessary one.
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Post by E.S. Bornatfiglheu on Dec 9, 2019 18:24:34 GMT -6
But, again, what does it matter what they call themselves? That's my specific point here. How can we identify if anyone is a single, real person if they don't tell us the name by which they go in their daily life, even if they don't use it in Talossa? Same way I was found out. As Etho mentioned, it had nothing to do with ID requirements. Why not just join under the name they're going to use? Thank you for granting me permission to legislate.
I'm not proposing anything of the sort. I am questioning the necessity of this particular law.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Dec 9, 2019 20:01:49 GMT -6
Same way I was found out. As Etho mentioned, it had nothing to do with ID requirements. This is incorrect in Iusti's case.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Dec 9, 2019 20:03:36 GMT -6
Same way I was found out. As Etho mentioned, it had nothing to do with ID requirements. This is incorrect in Iusti's case. True. If we did not know that Iusti Canún was the same person as J***** C*****, there would have been no way that Talossa would have known of his misdeeds. In fact, we had to check and double-check to make sure it was the same person. My "street name" is pretty well known by all Talossans, and you can google me and see what I'm doing in the rest of my life, and the worst thing you'll see about me is smears by various fascists (and by KR1, lol).
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Açafat del Val
Citizen of Talossa
Posts: 112
Talossan Since: 10-15-2017
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Post by Açafat del Val on Dec 10, 2019 9:48:36 GMT -6
Without quoting every single post made before this, I will make some general statements.
Talossa is a real country (a statement which I know is at odds with others' philosophies), but only to the extent that all citizens act in good faith. The very moment at which any person at all may represent themselves fraudulently, deceivingly, or otherwise falsely (for example, providing a false name or "online name" at immigration OR to the Chancery) coincides precisely with the moment when our great country ceases to be anything more than a club. (Again, I recognize the irony.)
Astute observers will have already seen that I took up a Talossan name recently, so please do not construe my argument as one against them or one requiring absolute disclosure. Rather, all of us - current and prospective - should have trust enough to give up our "real" names to the Chancery, a nonpartisan civil servant, in order to verify our identity and intents. If a person lacks that quantity of trust, then they quite honestly should not be naturalized in the first place; if they cannot trust us, then we should not trust them.
Real identification should be mandatory at immigration, but like GV suggested, its truly identifying elements should be blurred out (trust is a two-way street and we don't need prospectives thinking that we want to steal their identity). A picture of the person on a bona fide ID with a matching name and date of birth, along with no indication that the photo was doctored or borrowed elsewhere from the internet, suffices.
Part of the reason why I immigrated some years ago is because I knew that I would serving with "real people", however you want to interpret that phrase. There is an idea floating around about a Live Cosa in May, and that is incredibly exciting! How thrilling it will be to meet more of you face-to-face (and I say so sincerely). But it means nothing if we were to allow fraudulence in the process OR "act" our parts. A Talossan name should be uttered out of respect, and not because we're afraid to reveal ourselves to each other.
Edit: The very quality which makes Talossa different is that we neither hide behind the anonymity of the internet nor, for lack of a better word, play roles; all of us are serious and sincere in our actions and intents here. Otherwise there would be ZERO legitimacy in our operations, and I for one have no interest to serve in an illegitimate government.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Dec 14, 2019 18:08:37 GMT -6
After discussions within the Cabinet, and the input of the new Interior Minister Eðo Grischun, I hereby present a new draft of this bill. This version specifically recognizes both the duty of all citizens to provide their "names by which they are usually known in daily life", and their right to go by a different name in Talossa should they choose to do so. The main precedent for the latter is one of the oldest citizens of Talossa, a long-standing UC justice, who chose in the latter days of his Talossan career to go by "Art Verbotten"; since every knew who he really was, it didn't matter. === WHEREAS in days of old when knights were bold, the application process for citizenship of Talossa included the requirement of identification materials, so as Talossa could know who we were admitting, and the sponsor of this bill remembers photocopying her birth certificate since she had no photo ID at that stage of her life;
AND WHEREAS this continued until the end of the Talossan Republic, but was at some stage abolished within the Kingdom;
AND WHEREAS this enabled a certain prankster to commit massive immigration/electoral fraud, as we all remember;
AND WHEREAS the Immigration laws (Section E of El Lexhátx) clearly envisage that all applicants for Talossan citizenship should give their real identification details, as reinforced by El Lexhátx A.16.1;
AND WHEREAS there is absolutely no way for the Immigration authorities, at the moment, to know whether any prospective citizen is telling the truth about what their name is, unless they find out by accident;
AND WHEREAS no-one is suggesting that people should use their "street names" in easily Google-searchable Talossan forums, but that the Kingdom should have confidence that everyone here is a real person with a first name, hind name and address (to quote Ezra Pound), even if this is not publicly disclosed;BE IT ENACTED by the King, Cosâ and Senäts of Talossa in Ziu assembled that El Lexhátx E.2 shall be amended to read in its entirety:
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Post by Eðo Grischun on Dec 14, 2019 19:09:10 GMT -6
After discussions within the Cabinet, and the input of the new Interior Minister Eðo Grischun, I hereby present a new draft of this bill. This version specifically recognizes both the duty of all citizens to provide their "names by which they are usually known in daily life", and their right to go by a different name in Talossa should they choose to do so. The main precedent for the latter is one of the oldest citizens of Talossa, a long-standing UC justice, who chose in the latter days of his Talossan career to go by "Art Verbotten"; since every knew who he really was, it didn't matter. === WHEREAS in days of old when knights were bold, the application process for citizenship of Talossa included the requirement of identification materials, so as Talossa could know who we were admitting, and the sponsor of this bill remembers photocopying her birth certificate since she had no photo ID at that stage of her life;
AND WHEREAS this continued until the end of the Talossan Republic, but was at some stage abolished within the Kingdom;
AND WHEREAS this enabled a certain prankster to commit massive immigration/electoral fraud, as we all remember;
AND WHEREAS the Immigration laws (Section E of El Lexhátx) clearly envisage that all applicants for Talossan citizenship should give their real identification details, as reinforced by El Lexhátx A.16.1;
AND WHEREAS there is absolutely no way for the Immigration authorities, at the moment, to know whether any prospective citizen is telling the truth about what their name is, unless they find out by accident;
AND WHEREAS no-one is suggesting that people should use their "street names" in easily Google-searchable Talossan forums, but that the Kingdom should have confidence that everyone here is a real person with a first name, hind name and address (to quote Ezra Pound), even if this is not publicly disclosed;BE IT ENACTED by the King, Cosâ and Senäts of Talossa in Ziu assembled that El Lexhátx E.2 shall be amended to read in its entirety: One little nitpick. In the final line there should be an apostrophe in 'applicants identity'. Please add me as a co-sponsor to that version when Clarked, ideally with the Minister of Interior limousine.
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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on Dec 15, 2019 4:26:33 GMT -6
Two little suggestions: Can we add a provision that the option of choosing a Talossan-language name is still open for a prospective citizen, notwithstanding their choice of names in the application process? Some line that will make clear that it should not be an either-or situation, but rather an option of [Real name] + [Public Name] + [Talossan Name]?
Second, can we include a minimum word- or page count + font for the essay, or at least maybe a guideline as to what it should ideally be, but the minister can admit shorter documents, as well?
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