Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Sept 15, 2019 14:45:14 GMT -6
King Robert I often talked in his later years in power of wanting to make ár glheþ naziunál more "realistic", in the sense of making it a "believable" modern descendant of North African Romance as spoken by Berbers. He talked about the current language (sorry, don't know the source right now) as a big block of marble out of which he was trying to "sculpt" such a "realistic" language.
Is that a direction in which els Ladîntschen would be interested in pursuing? Or is the current "jumbled grab-bag of assorted nonsense" which is present-day Talossan just the way we like it?
Getting a sense of this will help the Government, the LN and SIGN with our future deliberations.
(Poll attached if you're reading on Latest 59)
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Sept 15, 2019 14:55:21 GMT -6
I'm inspired down this line of thought by these jokers who're trying to revive (North-Western) Indo-European as a language for the EU. The project seems ridiculous to me because their revived language involves voiced-aspirated consonants (bh, dh, gh), which don't occur in any modern North-Western IE language - it would probably be easier for most of us to speak Revived Indo-Iranian, lol. But you've got to applaud their ambition.
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Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial
Batetz las maes, perf. —— Freelance glheþineir (I only accept Worthless Internet Points™ as payment)
Posts: 448
Talossan Since: May 12, 2014
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Post by Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial on Sept 15, 2019 14:55:52 GMT -6
I'm in favour of "bug fixes" while keeping the language as a whole pretty much as-is, for example fixing conflicting prefixes (cun-/con-/qom-?!), suffixes (-înd/-ent/-ând) and derivations (actíu ~ inactuös ~ actività ~ radioactïuità ~ ignhaveschaziun?!).
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Sept 15, 2019 14:57:41 GMT -6
I'd agree that those need fixing. I would also like to toss out some of the more ridiculous English words. Having to use ivenðö ("even though") makes me cringe.
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Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial
Batetz las maes, perf. —— Freelance glheþineir (I only accept Worthless Internet Points™ as payment)
Posts: 448
Talossan Since: May 12, 2014
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Post by Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial on Sept 15, 2019 15:01:35 GMT -6
I'd agree that those need fixing. I would also like to toss out some of the more ridiculous English words. Having to use ivenðö ("even though") makes me cringe. Would that also include replacing énerxhi with * enerxhía or atomcrafteu (< German Atomkraft) instead of * enerxhía / *fuerça / pevar(h) nüclear?
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Sept 15, 2019 15:10:01 GMT -6
I'd agree that those need fixing. I would also like to toss out some of the more ridiculous English words. Having to use ivenðö ("even though") makes me cringe. Would that also include replacing énerxhi with * enerxhía or atomcrafteu (< German Atomkraft) instead of * enerxhía / *fuerça / pevar(h) nüclear? Well, we can have some loan words. I'm thinking of Irish abaltá which is a clear loan of English "able to". I would be very sorry to lose words like icastolâ. We have to come to a consensus on where we draw the line.
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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on Sept 16, 2019 8:07:45 GMT -6
This is an interesting question that I never even considered. Do we want to reshape Talossan into a more accomplished conlang, which is more linguistically thought-out, or do we keep it as the cute and weird little attempt at a conlang that threw in bits and pieces of other languages as fancied? Why are the 1st and 3rd persons plural tossed together (which, personally, I do not do)? If it is a Romance language, why is the conjugation paradigm so scarcely filled? We’re missing subjunctives, we’re missing a lot of tenses. We’re missing a lot of important “small” words.
I think there should be a more serious effort to build and further Talossan as a language, and I am glad to see that someone is heralding that effort.
We also desperately need someone who is *not* a nerd and can keep us language nerds grounded when we soar too high.
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Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial
Batetz las maes, perf. —— Freelance glheþineir (I only accept Worthless Internet Points™ as payment)
Posts: 448
Talossan Since: May 12, 2014
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Post by Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial on Sept 16, 2019 8:21:22 GMT -6
The thing is, if we decided to make Talossan a more realistic and believable descendent of African Latin, it'd honestly be easier to start from scratch and work with regular sound changes or what have you. (EDIT: The result would look less like the current pseudo-Galloromance and way more like Sardinian.) Personally, I don't think the result is worth discarding almost 40 years of our cultural history.
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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on Sept 16, 2019 15:07:38 GMT -6
Would that also include replacing énerxhi with * enerxhía or atomcrafteu (< German Atomkraft) instead of * enerxhía / *fuerça / pevar(h) nüclear? Well, we can have some loan words. I'm thinking of Irish abaltá which is a clear loan of English "able to". I would be very sorry to lose words like icastolâ. We have to come to a consensus on where we draw the line. I would not call ábalta a “clear” loan. A loan directly from French or Latin is also thinkable.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Sept 16, 2019 15:10:52 GMT -6
I would not call ábalta a “clear” loan. A loan directly from French or Latin is also thinkable. Well whaddaya know, you might be right. I guess that's my Anglocentrism showing through.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Sept 16, 2019 19:09:49 GMT -6
But in any case, we need to have some direction for the future of the language, especially if we are going to succeed in making it the property of a speaker-community than a one-man artlang. As we go on we are at least going to add to the vocabulary - and perhaps continue to "tweak" the grammar and orthography to make it more "useable". So the "Berber-Romance" direction is a valid one, as is the tradition of "play it by ear / 'feel'". But it would be best to come to a consensus. Speaking of which, Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, I would have no compunction in turning ár glheþ in a Sardinian direction - if you have any references indicating that that would be the closest living relative of African Romance? I don't see that here. I don't know much about Sardinian apart from the fact that it has very conservative pronunciation.
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Istefan Perþonest
Cunstaval to Fiôvâ; Regent of the University of Talossa
Posts: 1,024
Talossan Since: 2-21-1998
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Post by Istefan Perþonest on Sept 16, 2019 21:48:59 GMT -6
Speaking of which, Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, I would have no compunction in turning ár glheþ in a Sardinian direction - if you have any references indicating that that would be the closest living relative of African Romance? I don't see that here. Hmm? Section 3 of that page, "Related Languages". Not that the evidence is definitive, given how spotty knowledge of African Romance is. Sardinian might be in its own separate branch (coequal with the Western, Eastern, and African Romance branches) rather than the major surviving member of a group that included Sardinian and African Romance. But in that case we have incredibly little guidance as to what an African Romance language would look like. Accordingly, KR1 was using Sardinian as one of his references for moving things in a "Berber Romance" direction.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Sept 16, 2019 23:49:23 GMT -6
Accordingly, KR1 was using Sardinian as one of his references for moving things in a "Berber Romance" direction. I'm glad everyone has been paying closer attention than me, lol Well, that brings up a different question altogether. If we do want to go in the Berber-Romance-Sardinian direction ourselves, there's no point in going for "orthographic reunision" if we're just going to respell/repronounce everything. So we should come to a consensus ASAP.
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Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial
Batetz las maes, perf. —— Freelance glheþineir (I only accept Worthless Internet Points™ as payment)
Posts: 448
Talossan Since: May 12, 2014
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Post by Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial on Sept 17, 2019 5:41:57 GMT -6
For new vocabulary, I mostly stick to the guidelines from the Scurznia Gramatica: Thats how I coined the word axhuntar "add" (< Romansh agiuntar, ~ Talossan axhunta) back in 2015.
I would cut Rule 6, since it's the exact opposite of what we want; any Talossan Language Committee, be it SIGN or the de facto defunct CÚG, should document the words that are in use and recommend possible alternatives for loanwords or whatever instead of decreeing which words must or mustnt be used.
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Post by Cresti Nouacastra-Läxhirescu on Sept 17, 2019 9:32:44 GMT -6
Would anyone have any objections to simplifying the grammar a bit? In not sure if anyone is familiar with Esperanto grammar, but a limited number of cases, conditional grammatical gender (which is pretty much optional), common noun, verb, and adjective endings?
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