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Post by Þon Txoteu É. Davinescu on Sept 9, 2019 22:44:58 GMT -6
If the objection is to my personal leadership, please let it be known that I would be unbelievably delighted if someone else took on this job instead and enacted my idea. That would really be the ideal, in fact. First and foremost, I don't agree with the Power-grabby-ness of your proposal. We finally have an established Navy Board and those four Officers have been set for quite some time. Secondly, if your interest is in the Zouaves, I completely don't care. That's something to take up with MinInt. Third, there is no reason to militarize the wording. People around here don't understand the military enough as is. There's no need to confuse them. Lastly, I am sick of people talking about either: 1) my proposals are "too big" for our nation. Talossa has hundreds (likely thousands) of pages of Organic and Statuary Law. Why are those thousands of laws not "too big" but my one or two page real-world-modeled proposals are. 2) The Orders and Awards are just that. I proposed a formal system, structured on the European model that resulted in the Canadian Honours system. My interest is the development of the Talossan military, I enjoy it and I'm a military scholar. That is where my passion lies. I try and function my time in Talossa as it was first explained to me. "Find an area to be passionate about and run with it." Needless to say, doing so has always ended up a waste of time on my part because killjoys that hate anybody but them having their legislations passed have destroyed every effort I have made to make a contribution to the Kingdom. And surprise, surprise... here we go again.
WHAT HARM DOES THIS PROPOSAL DO!? How is having an established National Honours system going to hurt any one citizen of Talossa?
The answer is it won't! I'm trying to take a tiny niche passion and run with it. And if you can't give a better reason than "We never had that before" or "We aren't big enough for that" YOU are part of the problem. Know why?! Because, before December of 1979 NONE OF THIS EXISTED! Talossa thrives when citizens can actually contribute. When they can't... the country WILL die.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Sept 10, 2019 0:16:47 GMT -6
Look, we seem to be going round and round in circles on this.
Unless something jumps up and gets consensus soon, I am minded to simply propose the Foreign Minister's original scheme of Honours to the Ziu and let it go up or down on a free vote.
Iac and AD's proposal for a "paramilitary language nerds society" is actually a good one as well - if they want to do the work - but I would recommend it be set up outside the realms of the 'official military'. Why not make it a chivalric/quasi-Masonic secret society? Then you can have ranks, rituals, uniforms etc. and not step on Defence's toes.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Sept 10, 2019 4:41:19 GMT -6
First and foremost, I don't agree with the Power-grabby-ness of your proposal. We finally have an established Navy Board and those four Officers have been set for quite some time. I think they should all be fired and their jobs eliminated. The military right now is literally useless. It does not have a use. But I'm willing to settle for half a loaf and just do this with one branch, instead. Secondly, if your interest is in the Zouaves, I completely don't care. That's something to take up with MinInt. Great! I think the project will be a success and give the military purpose for the first time since the Cone War. Third, there is no reason to militarize the wording. People around here don't understand the military enough as is. There's no need to confuse them. No, it's definitely necessary. Literally the only reason anyone joins the military is either because they think it and its titles are cool or because they want to make a new bunch of rules. Military titles are rad, and so I am going to use them to spur cultural activity. That's the whole idea, actually: make the military useful for once. 2) The Orders and Awards are just that. I proposed a formal system, structured on the European model that resulted in the Canadian Honours system. My interest is the development of the Talossan military, I enjoy it and I'm a military scholar. That is where my passion lies. I try and function my time in Talossa as it was first explained to me. "Find an area to be passionate about and run with it." Needless to say, doing so has always ended up a waste of time on my part because killjoys that hate anybody but them having their legislations passed have destroyed every effort I have made to make a contribution to the Kingdom. And surprise, surprise... here we go again. WHAT HARM DOES THIS PROPOSAL DO!? How is having an established National Honours system going to hurt any one citizen of Talossa? This doesn't really seem to be about my idea? But I'd say that you're making up new orders of knighthood plus new internal degrees of knighthood in a country that only uses one, and that very sparingly. A lot of folks don't like adding on big hierarchies of any sort if they're not going to be used. It makes it harder for people to understand what's actually important, and adding on "one or two pages" of new law that will be useless just means that people looking for actually useful laws will have that much more to search through. I'm not a politician these days, so I don't have a dog in this hunt, but your proposal seems like it won't help anybody and might hurt in some ways. We already have a national system of honors that's slightly too big a set of britches... clambering into a new pair that's five times bigger is just going to make us trip.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Sept 10, 2019 4:44:10 GMT -6
Look, we seem to be going round and round in circles on this. Unless something jumps up and gets consensus soon, I am minded to simply propose the Foreign Minister's original scheme of Honours to the Ziu and let it go up or down on a free vote. Iac and AD's proposal for a "paramilitary language nerds society" is actually a good one as well - if they want to do the work - but I would recommend it be set up outside the realms of the 'official military'. Why not make it a chivalric/quasi-Masonic secret society? Then you can have ranks, rituals, uniforms etc. and not step on Defence's toes. I just don't think it would be as cool or useful in that way, since there aren't enough visible promotions. I did think about it. The engine that drives this thing is purely the "cool" factor that leads to people like Txot here, Tim Asmourescu, Sir Mick, etc, wanting to pretend to run a military. Plus if we did it with the Zuoaves it would be a proof of concept, and then the rest of the military can be eliminated (two birds with one stone!)
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Sept 10, 2019 14:46:41 GMT -6
I just don't think it would be as cool or useful in that way, since there aren't enough visible promotions. I did think about it. The engine that drives this thing is purely the "cool" factor that leads to people like Txot here, Tim Asmourescu, Sir Mick, etc, wanting to pretend to run a military. Plus if we did it with the Zuoaves it would be a proof of concept, and then the rest of the military can be eliminated (two birds with one stone!) As I was about to say to A. Róibeardet about the provinces: I'm not going to support abolishing something just because some Talossans don't see the point of it. As long as someone sees the point of something and wants to do something/have fun with it, it should stay. How about... let me think... I declare a paramilitary organisation under the Ministry of Culture rather Defence, and hand that over to you to do with as you will?
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Sept 10, 2019 16:24:10 GMT -6
There don't appear to be any objections to the Zuoaves becoming a cultural force. Is there some reason why you don't want to do that?
I think a lot of the reason why this idea might work is because of the associated prestige of the "real" military. If I thought a paramilitary organization would work, I could just declare one myself right now, right?
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Sept 10, 2019 16:29:05 GMT -6
Also, I'm getting kind of tired of working so hard to persuade this government to let me volunteer my time on this. All we've heard from you is how it's important to let people who are willing to innovate try new things. Why are you guys fighting so hard to stop me, then? Is there some large force of Zuoaves objecting to me disrupting their busy schedule of nothing? Do you have people lining up around the block to launch and manage large new cultural enterprises?
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Sept 10, 2019 16:36:21 GMT -6
Is there some large force of Zuoaves objecting to me disrupting their busy schedule of nothing? Do you have people lining up around the block to launch and manage large new cultural enterprises? Elections have consequences, and one consequences is that His Majesty's Government runs the organs of the State. "A large proportion of the Cabinet don't like the idea" is a good enough reason not to do something with the organs of State. I think we went through this when you went apoplectic that members of the Cabinet even disagreed with the idea of giving you state funding, which you later returned anyway. No-one is stopping you doing anything privately. I've given you an offer to do something through the Ministry of Culture.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Sept 10, 2019 17:27:23 GMT -6
I do not think your proposed alternative will work, so I will decline to launch and manage it. If you can find someone else with the time and energy, you are welcome to the idea. Let them do it.
You have vowed dozens of times that you want to do what you can to encourage activity, even if it steps on the toes of folks who just want to obstruct and keep things the way they are. I literally cannot think of a more perfect example of what you claimed to support than someone taking the useless and inactive military and turning it into an active cultural force. And yet here we are.
You guys definitely have all the power -- don't worry, I'm well aware!
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Iac Marscheir
Citizen of Talossa
yak marsh air
Posts: 782
Talossan Since: 12-3-2016
Baron Since: Qet Miestra tent zirada.
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Post by Iac Marscheir on Sept 10, 2019 17:34:25 GMT -6
She's offering you a compromise, a way to have a military-themed organization with a linguistic focus. Are you really gonna turn right around and take a giant steaming shit all over it?
Just as a purely hypothetical proposition: what if such an organization were to be merged with la SIGN and placed under el BüG?
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Sept 10, 2019 17:37:41 GMT -6
She's offering you a compromise, a way to have a military-themed organization with a linguistic focus. Are you really gonna turn right around and take a giant steaming shit all over it? Just as a purely hypothetical proposition: what if such an organization were to be merged with la SIGN and placed under el BüG? I have a pretty clear idea of why I think my plan would work. It would be a huge investment in time and energy, though. I am willing to make a go of it, despite how busy I am otherwise, because it seems like it might be fun and I would enjoy the challenge. But I am definitely not going to invest that time and energy in an approach that I do not think would work. I do not think it will work unless it is the actual and official military. You might disagree with that, but tough luck. I'm the one offering to actually do this and I have a track record that shows that I could make it a success. So I will rely on my own judgment. Again, I would be delighted (I would enormously prefer) if someone else took this and ran with it instead, so if you don't like my plan, maybe you can find someone willing to put in the work on your terms.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Sept 10, 2019 18:08:48 GMT -6
I'm the one offering to actually do this and I have a track record that shows that I could make it a success. The last major cultural initiative you took charge of - and got State funding for - you decided not to do after all. You can understand why this doesn't fill us with confidence. Nevertheless, the invitation to set up a paramilitary language corps under the Ministry of Culture is open should you decide to take it.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Sept 10, 2019 18:27:27 GMT -6
I'm the one offering to actually do this and I have a track record that shows that I could make it a success. The last major cultural initiative you took charge of - and got State funding for - you decided not to do after all. You can understand why this doesn't fill us with confidence. Nevertheless, the invitation to set up a paramilitary language corps under the Ministry of Culture is open should you decide to take it. I decline to invest time and energy in your alternative proposal, since I do not think it will work. If you can find someone willing to put in the hours on your terms, I will be very happy to be proven wrong. I'll stop arguing now, since I know you have to get back to your duties helping manage valuable military events and promoting new ideas for activity. Too many people popping up to offer to help with stuff, and someone has to keep track of all those Zuoaves!
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Iac Marscheir
Citizen of Talossa
yak marsh air
Posts: 782
Talossan Since: 12-3-2016
Baron Since: Qet Miestra tent zirada.
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Post by Iac Marscheir on Sept 10, 2019 20:19:04 GMT -6
Would you mind giving 5 minutes' consideration to either of our proposals? I mean, is it really that hard to send a form PM congratulating someone on a promotion for their language skills?
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Sept 10, 2019 20:25:21 GMT -6
Would you mind giving 5 minutes' consideration to either of our proposals? I mean, is it really that hard to send a form PM congratulating someone on a promotion for their language skills? Since the whole "miltarisation of the langauge/ ghleþinaziun del militar" thing has provoked so much discussion, we'll be having a special Cabinet discussion on it later in the week, and if we come up with a consensus, we'll put extra amendments in the Honours Bill in the Hopper.
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