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Post by Antaglha Xhenerös Somelieir on Jul 1, 2019 9:13:10 GMT -6
Talossa has, for a long time, headed towards a system that the only opposition is that those not in power criticise the party in power, and not offer any substantive policy proposals of their own, either to fill a gap, or as a counter to Government policy.
This was much better with the opposition in the last RUMP Government (the only thing that was good about it), as the Opposition, understood and knew how to oppose the Government, and was effective at doing so. Which is why the RUMP government eventually fell.
This just shows that the RUMP party just doesn’t understand how politics should work. It is not about saying “you aren’t doing this…. Or that” but about thinking about and exchanging ideas.
One particular RUMP party member often criticises how things are, and the Government policies, however, to my knowledge has yet to put up a policy idea or suggestion. Or even engage in meaningful debate on the issue and instead speaks in vague language, which offers nothing to the initial debate and just sidesteps the original debate entirely.
To be an opposition, you actually need to propose your own policies, platform, ideas for the future, not willow in what you consider are the good old days.
I honestly believe that one of Talossa biggest problems in activity, is that the Political system has become stale and one sided. Don’t get me wrong, im happy with who is in Government (I am a member of the FreeDems of course), but the lack of an opposing policy suggestions to debate, and the opposition only criticising with offering nothing up themselves, just brings toxicity into the climate, and steams progress and will drive away potential immigration, and further precipitate the inactivity that plagues Talossa right now.
If there were an honest and respectful debate and change of ideas of how to move this nation forwards then, that I believe would be much more fun, and draw people into the Country and into being more active, and if people can participate in that, then people would feel that they could have something to offer in the debate, and even if your ideas aren’t ultimately implemented, the fact that your ideas have been discussed, and hopefully in a fun, substantive, and creative way, will make people feel more welcome and comfortable in sharing ideas, rather than not wanting to risk being either ignored, or shot down which draws people away.
I hope that we can move more toward having fun in the exchange of ideas, where people can offer an opinion at some point, without fear of ridicule.
And move forward in the spirit of having fun, and more than that, in the spirit of what is the best interests of Talossa, and just to bring more light, and fun into the Country than the black cloud that has descended upon Talossa, and has moulded us into what Talossa is now, and not what it should, and could still be.
Sorry for the rant here, but I felt this needed to be said. As I do feel that we need to debate and engage in ideas from all sides and parties, and have fun in doing so. And I think that spirit has been lost, and something that we need to try to reclaim.
Just because you have opposing ideas, it doesn’t make them not valid ideas, nor that they should be taken seriously, and have them be properly considered, as it isn’t just the Government you need to convince, and bring onside, but the people. And I think the more engaged in civil, and substantive debates over actually policy points. The more value people will start putting back into Talossa again.
Again sorry for the rant, and I hope that you all understand, that this is not trying to put down certain people or Parties, but is just my honest take on the state of Talossa right now, which I’m putting out in public view, in the hope that a discussion on this can take place, at the very least. This is because I want Talossa to thrive, and become a place where people want to be and have fun, and take pride in being part of. And I hope this, even in part, helps that to happen again. (not that I think it will, but I live in hope)
Antaglha Xhenerös Somelieir
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Lüc da Schir
Senator for Benito
If Italy wins a Six Nations match I will join the Zouaves
Posts: 4,125
Talossan Since: 3-21-2012
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Post by Lüc da Schir on Jul 1, 2019 10:11:04 GMT -6
This was much better with the opposition in the last RUMP Government (the only thing that was good about it), as the Opposition, understood and knew how to oppose the Government, and was effective at doing so. Which is why the RUMP government eventually fell. I hope you're not referring to the 49th Cosa's government, because I distinctly recall one party vaporizing the others in the following election, while the FreeDems had their worst performance to date. If that's the case, your recollection of the events is clearly wrong.
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Post by Txec Rôibeardsëfiglheu on Jul 1, 2019 10:15:58 GMT -6
I just sent off a message to the Seneschal as to my own lack of activity. Some of my reasons are personal issues and you have hit the nail on some of the other reasons that I couldn't quite find the words for when I wrote her the message. Thank you for your rant.
As I am a person who would rather find solutions that complain about things how do we get to the point of We have some really brilliant and cool people here but how do we get rid of the "black cloud" and unleash the fun and advancing the best interests of Talossa?
(I acknowledge that I am not a shining example of anything noble. It has been years since I've been active.)
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Post by Antaglha Xhenerös Somelieir on Jul 1, 2019 10:31:28 GMT -6
This was much better with the opposition in the last RUMP Government (the only thing that was good about it), as the Opposition, understood and knew how to oppose the Government, and was effective at doing so. Which is why the RUMP government eventually fell. I hope you're not referring to the 49th Cosa's government, because I distinctly recall one party vaporizing the others in the following election, while the FreeDems had their worst performance to date. If that's the case, your recollection of the events is clearly wrong.
I wasnt specifically thinking about a single Cosa term per say. More of how the opposition back then, regardless of the electoral results, were effective in bringing new ideas to the country, and formulating counter proposals and doing so in the spirit of progress and moving talossa forward. What i was refering to was how the effective offer of an alternative eventually bought down the RUMP trhough a debate and exchange of ideas. But no i wasnt refering to a specific Cosa, i was just refering to how the opposition conducted itself under RUMP governments. Not directly how that impacted electoral results.
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Lüc da Schir
Senator for Benito
If Italy wins a Six Nations match I will join the Zouaves
Posts: 4,125
Talossan Since: 3-21-2012
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Post by Lüc da Schir on Jul 1, 2019 10:59:12 GMT -6
I hope you're not referring to the 49th Cosa's government, because I distinctly recall one party vaporizing the others in the following election, while the FreeDems had their worst performance to date. If that's the case, your recollection of the events is clearly wrong.
I wasnt specifically thinking about a single Cosa term per say. More of how the opposition back then, regardless of the electoral results, were effective in bringing new ideas to the country, and formulating counter proposals and doing so in the spirit of progress and moving talossa forward. What i was refering to was how the effective offer of an alternative eventually bought down the RUMP trhough a debate and exchange of ideas. But no i wasnt refering to a specific Cosa, i was just refering to how the opposition conducted itself under RUMP governments. Not directly how that impacted electoral results. Makes sense. Anyhow, thanks for sharing. I think most of what you posted makes perfect sense.
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Post by Gödafrïeu Válcadác’h on Jul 1, 2019 20:45:25 GMT -6
Azul, Antaglha! I will let our Seneschal have the final word, but I point you to our manifesto and party Platform at freedems.proboards.com/thread/100/final-vote-on-platform which should ally any fears about the present government not having a purpose or a positive message. You are fortunate to have arrived in Talossa *after* a long period of calm strife (2005-2012) which followed a brief period (2003-2004) in which the Talossan community nigh-on imploded on itself. The reasons for the 'black cloud' are myriad and too complex to explain here, but I can and do say this to you and everyone: Talossa begins with you. It begins with me. It begins and ends with all of us. This nationette which has existed since 1979 is worth preserving, protecting, and constantly improving, and you and I can be a part of that. What does 'that' look like? It starts with you and everyone continuing to ask questions - a hallmark of democracy. It continues with you and I starting to learn the gorgeous and expressive Talossan language. It continues with you and I learning Talossan history. It continues with you and I doing all we can to keep our hobby free, fun, and fair. Continue to fight the good fight and take us to task. Everyone can and does make a difference in Talossa. GV
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Iac Marscheir
Citizen of Talossa
yak marsh air
Posts: 782
Talossan Since: 12-3-2016
Baron Since: Qet Miestra tent zirada.
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Post by Iac Marscheir on Jul 1, 2019 20:55:07 GMT -6
Hah! There's a fluffy little term. "Nationette". That encapsulates both Talossa's imaginariness and its exceptionalism with respect to the wider micronational community.
That said, thank you for acknowledging the importance of el glheþ dels Talossaes.
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Post by Antaglha Xhenerös Somelieir on Jul 1, 2019 21:16:24 GMT -6
Azul, Antaglha! I will let our Seneschal have the final word, but I point you to our manifesto and party Platform at freedems.proboards.com/thread/100/final-vote-on-platform which should ally any fears about the present government not having a purpose or a positive message. You are fortunate to have arrived in Talossa *after* a long period of calm strife (2005-2012) which followed a brief period (2003-2004) in which the Talossan community nigh-on imploded on itself. The reasons for the 'black cloud' are myriad and too complex to explain here, but I can and do say this to you and everyone: Talossa begins with you. It begins with me. It begins and ends with all of us. This nationette which has existed since 1979 is worth preserving, protecting, and constantly improving, and you and I can be a part of that. What does 'that' look like? It starts with you and everyone continuing to ask questions - a hallmark of democracy. It continues with you and I starting to learn the gorgeous and expressive Talossan language. It continues with you and I learning Talossan history. It continues with you and I doing all we can to keep our hobby free, fun, and fair. Continue to fight the good fight and take us to task. Everyone can and does make a difference in Talossa. GV I never said that the Government does not have a purpose or positive purpose. Also i do have an idea of the manifesto and platform of the party, as i have done my best to keep up with our parties plan, but yeah this is in no way a criticism of the Government. In fact the only times I've mentioned the Government, is to say that there isnt an effective, coherent opposition, with their own plan or agenda to bring to present to the people. Am i saying im looking for alternatives for myself? No i am not. But what i am saying, is that for politics to work, for ideas to be fleshed out, and for accountability of governance, an effective and thoughtful opposition is needed for a democracy ro thrive. And that is what talossa currently lacks. I dont mind disagreements taking place, in a constructive and respectful, substantive way, but this has been lacking. Also if you had read my post properly, you would have seen that i am happy with the Government and that i am a party member of the FreeDems. I was only critisiing the hostile climate that talossan politics has become and my take on why that has happened in the years i have been a citizen. Which has been quite a few years now. This post is about offering constructive crtisim to those in opposition, to not just complain but to actually provide an alternative, and spark debates based on policiy, and then let the people decide on who has the best policies, not resign themselves to being out of power, and jsut critisie and refuse to meaningfully engage on topics. Which Hurths not just their credibility, but the Country as a whole. So i do believe you have massivley missed the point i was making in this post GV
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Post by Eðo Grischun on Jul 1, 2019 22:52:49 GMT -6
I think the problem here is that for the past while the changes that the government want to make can't be opposed by offering an alternative in the way you suggest. The alternative we prefer in many cases is what is already in place. This gets used as way to bash us for wanting to keep the status quo. Well, it's true, but we don't see how it's a negative thing to defend the things we don't want to see changed. If there's a particular idea being presented and we don't want to see that change come into effect, we don't need to invent an alternative to offer.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Jul 2, 2019 0:24:22 GMT -6
See, we're confusing two issues here:
- the issue of whether we need institutional reform (to which a preferred alternative of "status quo" makes sense) - the issue of what is to be done to increase the amount of fun and activity in Talossa. The Government is doing its best in the latter regard. The leader of the Opposition continually and sarcastically complains the Government isn't doing the right thing, or enough of the right thing. But what do you guys want us to be doing?
If the survey response (and whispers I've heard even since Reunision) are any guide, the answer for a lot of people is that the very presence of Talossans who want reforms is "spoiling the fun", that fighting reform proposals takes up all the valuable time and energy that would otherwise be spent on "fun stuff". Therefore, the best that people like that (eg myself) could do to improve things would be to just... stop. Go away.
That's certainly a viewpoint, but I don't think it's one that the esteemed Member of the Cosa supports. So what should the Government be doing, apart from stopping our attempts at institutional reform? Which is weird because the esteemed Member of the Cosa has submitted several proposals for institutional reform to this very session of the Ziu (eg. immigration reform).
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Post by Eðo Grischun on Jul 2, 2019 4:59:27 GMT -6
Certainly not a viewpoint I support.
In fact, the very opposite.
Kind of related, kind of not... I'm rather disappointed that you and other republicans didn't go all in with your ideology. Part of the stale flavour is a lack of ideological battle. You should have been fighting tooth and nail for a republic all this time, while the Rump defended the monarchy. Meanwhile all different debates would likely have taken place on things like federalism, devolution, what have you.
My point being, as it's always been, Talossa is at its best when two or more sides are engaged in worthy battles. Ideology vs ideology.
Reforms are all well and good, and opposing reforms is all well and good, but it's all weak sauce. From both sides.
You shouldn't have watered down your beliefs and ideology to a palatable agnosticism. We shouldn't have settled to become some version of defenders of the faith. Both sides have stopped fighting for something.
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Iac Marscheir
Citizen of Talossa
yak marsh air
Posts: 782
Talossan Since: 12-3-2016
Baron Since: Qet Miestra tent zirada.
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Post by Iac Marscheir on Jul 2, 2019 9:46:44 GMT -6
Not saying I don't think that'd be cool, but perhaps people lost their taste for fighting a while back?
And, really, it's kind of amazing to find an online community where each day isn't a battle.
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Post by Txec Rôibeardsëfiglheu on Jul 2, 2019 10:38:02 GMT -6
Not saying I don't think that'd be cool, but perhaps people lost their taste for fighting a while back? It's possible. There have been some huge fights over the 20 or so years I have been around this community. I think it has more to do with the nature of the fight though. Like S:reu Grischun's says the fighting needs to be of a different calibre than "You are a member of the opposing party therefore you are an idiot and I will attack you at every chance." The philosophical difference between the former Republicans and the Monarchists would have provided an opportunity to liven things up. As a matter of fact when Reunison came for me I purposely chose to not join the Republican ghetto in Fiova. I wanted to be in my beloved Maricopa and I wanted to be integrated into Talossan society as a Talossan not as a former Republican. I want(ed) to think and act as a Talossan. I tend to be rather conservative and I wanted to see what worked and what didn't work before I got all wound up about changing stuff. EDIT: As a matter of fact I think that in the first couple of elections that I was eligible to vote in I voted RUMP because I figured they would maintain the status quo while I figured out what being in the Kingdom meant to me. /EDIT After that extra-Talossan life got seriously in my way and I didn't have a chance to follow through on any of this even though I wanted to. Returning now, as a result of the survey, and looking around, I find Talossa to be somewhat bewildering. I am trying to get myself up to speed before I go jumping off into some of the rants. I have no idea where my political allegiances lie. But this thread piqued my interest and seemed to geared to backsliding Talossans so here I am. And it would be about as interesting as watching sand collect on a window sill.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Jul 2, 2019 16:31:32 GMT -6
I'm rather disappointed that you and other republicans didn't go all in with your ideology. Part of the stale flavour is a lack of ideological battle. You should have been fighting tooth and nail for a republic all this time, while the Rump defended the monarchy. Always good to hear my political opponents tell me what I should be doing, lol, it's very trustworthy. Two points: - the republican party, the ZRT, simply ran out of active members apart from myself. We would have ceased to exist if it weren't for the merger with the Liberal Congress on a platform of "democratic reforms, agnostic on the issue of monarchy". And now we're in government. - a recent referendum showed that in any plain "monarchy vs republic" vote, your side would currently win by a 2-1 margin.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Jul 2, 2019 17:20:19 GMT -6
I think it has more to do with the nature of the fight though. Like S:reu Grischun's says the fighting needs to be of a different calibre than "You are a member of the opposing party therefore you are an idiot and I will attack you at every chance." The philosophical difference between the former Republicans and the Monarchists would have provided an opportunity to liven things up. C. Carlüs Xheraltescù split from the Republican ZRT to form the Liberal Congress precisely because people were getting tired of the continual Republican/Monarchist ideological bickering. No-one seems to remember that. The shocking thing is that exactly the same bickering happens between the same people, but it is clear that the Republican/Monarchist debate was a smokescreen for just people not being able to stand each other, personally. Reviving the ideological fig-leaf from a naked personality fight would do nothing. I don't agree with MC Grischün that the fights were "better" when we pretended they were about ideology.
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