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Post by Sevastáin Pinátsch on Apr 12, 2019 9:24:14 GMT -6
Respectfully, I am trying to engage in good faith on this. I appreciate this. And given that you wrote (or co-authored) 47RZ22, your hesitation now warrants serious consideration.
In addition to just keeping more Talossan data in a database that the nation owns and controls, my hope in separating the political wrangling into its own arena is that it leaves the remaining areas dedicated to social and cultural interaction. I think their coexistence here -- mixing business with pleasure -- makes them bleed together in a way that's difficult to separate.
Yeah, it's still possible that someone will take their anger from one sphere and drop it in another, but it'll be off-topic. They'll have to hijack a thread to pick a fight with someone else.
I've always thought the arrangement of these forums was wrong to begin with. The Chat Room, where I get the most pleasure reading, is buried dead last under all the business and drama. I'm happiest when I'm reading people just expressing themselves -- what they're living through, what gives them joy, what they feel inspired to share. That's the content that makes me feel like real people live here.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Apr 12, 2019 16:20:06 GMT -6
How does the incoming Government plan to address the effects that splitting between two boards could have on activity? I'm not the one making extraordinary claims, so I'm not the one who has to provide extraordinary evidence. With respect, this is a classic example of how conservative politicians use rhetorical " FUD" tactics to try to stop initiatives, and it behooves more sensible people on the political spectrum not to pass on scare-stories. Conservatives: "the government's plan will cause the GRAVES TO OPEN and the GHOSTS OF OUR ANCESTORS to emerge and COMPETE IN ATHLETIC SPORTS" Moderates: "How does the incoming Government plan to address the possible influx of high-jumping ghosts that their plan could cause?" Honestly, I'm much more concerned with the possible detrimental effects on activity of our only official webforum being the private property of the King which he moderates as he sees fit without any accountability. You'll note that the people raising scare stories don't deal with the bad things that are currently happening. I would also point out that, as the outgoing Seneschál, you had all the time, opportunity and power in the world to abolish Title J of El Lexhátx... and you didn't, because, well, I'm not sure why. You thought it was fine as a dead letter?
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Apr 12, 2019 16:45:32 GMT -6
Respectfully, I am trying to engage in good faith on this. I appreciate this. And given that you wrote (or co-authored) 47RZ22, your hesitation now warrants serious consideration. In addition to just keeping more Talossan data in a database that the nation owns and controls, my hope in separating the political wrangling into its own arena is that it leaves the remaining areas dedicated to social and cultural interaction. I think their coexistence here -- mixing business with pleasure -- makes them bleed together in a way that's difficult to separate.
Yeah, it's still possible that someone will take their anger from one sphere and drop it in another, but it'll be off-topic. They'll have to hijack a thread to pick a fight with someone else.
I've always thought the arrangement of these forums was wrong to begin with. The Chat Room, where I get the most pleasure reading, is buried dead last under all the business and drama. I'm happiest when I'm reading people just expressing themselves -- what they're living through, what gives them joy, what they feel inspired to share. That's the content that makes me feel like real people live here.
You have good points. To be clear, I am very open to migrating Witt to another location, but it's just the simultaneous split into Telecomuna that I think is a very poor idea (for the reasons stated above). I agree that ProBoards is a hideous pain that tries to lock our data in on purpose, and there's not much reason to continue with it beyond the fact that it basically is an acceptably mediocre status quo. I applaud your efforts on this front in general, even if we differ on some things. Yes, it is possible that segregating politics from socializing will result in the socializing being healthier. I'm a little skeptical when I think about any specific examples, since I honestly can't think of anyone who would have been deterred by such, but I admit that possibility. I'm sort of thinking in terms of a pros and cons list, at this point. It's not obvious or clear-cut. I believe the reason why the Chat Room has been kept at the bottom is out of an interest of having some pleasant public face on Witt. It's not visible to outsiders, after all, and so if most of our social discussions went on there, then that aspect of Witt would be opaque to non-citizens. So the general board, visible to all, was put at the top as a nudge to use it. I see merit on both sides of the arrangement, but that's the argument, for what it's worth.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Apr 12, 2019 16:49:55 GMT -6
How does the incoming Government plan to address the effects that splitting between two boards could have on activity? I'm not the one making extraordinary claims, so I'm not the one who has to provide extraordinary evidence. With respect, this is a classic example of how conservative politicians use rhetorical " FUD" tactics to try to stop initiatives, and it behooves more sensible people on the political spectrum not to pass on scare-stories. Conservatives: "the government's plan will cause the GRAVES TO OPEN and the GHOSTS OF OUR ANCESTORS to emerge and COMPETE IN ATHLETIC SPORTS" Moderates: "How does the incoming Government plan to address the possible influx of high-jumping ghosts that their plan could cause?" Honestly, I'm much more concerned with the possible detrimental effects on activity of our only official webforum being the private property of the King which he moderates as he sees fit without any accountability. You'll note that the people raising scare stories don't deal with the bad things that are currently happening. I would also point out that, as the outgoing Seneschál, you had all the time, opportunity and power in the world to abolish Title J of El Lexhátx... and you didn't, because, well, I'm not sure why. You thought it was fine as a dead letter? Again respectfully, this reads as though you are not actually engaged with the discussion. No one is dismissing the real problems with the status quo -- I created the Telecomuna compromise, so clearly I have long been aware of the issue -- and the very real concerns being presented are realistic and reasonably stated. You don't have to get involved in the discussion, but accusing Ian or I of wild fearmongering is not engaging in good faith.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Apr 12, 2019 17:18:39 GMT -6
Sir Alexandreu, please explain what has changed since you proposed 47RZ22 and it was endorsed by a large majority of the Cosa.
My priority is having at least a Government web forum - and preferably all our webforums - which is not the private property of the King and moderated according to his whims, with no accountability. My preferred solution would be for the King to simply surrender the current Wittenberg to the State. He has been explicit in other threads that he will consider any attempts to statutorially nationalise or even regulate Witt as unconstitutional, so therefore I have foreshadowed the approach of simply asking him nicely - without the need of statutory sanction - to surrender control of Wittenberg to State authorities, preferably the Chancery. Setting up Telecomuna is, in my opinion, a "backstop" in case he says no.
If, on the other hand, the King were to surrender Wittenberg to the State, I would be happy to combine Public and Private Witts and thus amend/replace Title J of El Lexhatx. For me, everything rides on how the King responds to a request to surrender Wittenberg. And that has to wait until I am formally given the nod to be Seneschál - or, if the King really wants to be a verpa about it, until I automatically become Seneschál at the beginning of May.
This bill is therefore not consonant with current Government plans, and also premature.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Apr 12, 2019 18:05:29 GMT -6
Sir Alexandreu, please explain what has changed since you proposed 47RZ22 and it was endorsed by a large majority of the Cosa. Well, as previously said, we are at lower levels of engagement, since a lot of people appear to have become disinterested in Talossa in its current form. The recent election had the lowest number of voters in years, and a lot of people -- including you -- have said that Talossa is not fun anymore. Accordingly, there is much less general activity. There was a time when the wiki was going up, and people were inventing Talossa-themed board games, and there were several media groups, and so on. There is very little of that now, and splitting it up over multiple boards will make it worse, I think. I argue more on this point in earlier posts in this thread, if you're interested. I think it's fun to figure things out, solve problems, and make new stuff. So you better believe if I am trying to persuade you not to endorse and enact my Telecomuna plan, there's definitely a good reason for it. It's not fearmongering. My priority is having at least a Government web forum - and preferably all our webforums - which is not the private property of the King and moderated according to his whims, with no accountability. My preferred solution would be for the King to simply surrender the current Wittenberg to the State. He has been explicit in other threads that he will consider any attempts to statutorially nationalise or even regulate Witt as unconstitutional, so therefore I have foreshadowed the approach of simply asking him nicely - without the need of statutory sanction - to surrender control of Wittenberg to State authorities, preferably the Chancery. Setting up Telecomuna is, in my opinion, a "backstop" in case he says no. I don't follow. Why would Telecomuna come into it at all? Why not just a different Wittenberg? Sev could set one up as easily as Telecomuna (I think he did, actually). If, on the other hand, the King were to surrender Wittenberg to the State, I would be happy to combine Public and Private Witts and thus amend/replace Title J of El Lexhatx. For me, everything rides on how the King responds to a request to surrender Wittenberg. And that has to wait until I am formally given the nod to be Seneschál - or, if the King really wants to be a verpa about it, until I automatically become Seneschál at the beginning of May. You are the Seneschal and head of government. You are leading the people and you have responsibilities. You need to start resisting the urge to casually call the head of state the Talossan word for "penis" (if I have that right). Just stop and think for a moment about how you are simultaneously musing about how you want to come to a pleasant agreement about several important things with someone, while also casually calling them names. I know you were saying that in terms of a hypothetical, but you need to dial back this sort of thing. Casual antagonism is not going to help the country that you are leading. Please. You don't have to cede the point or agree with me, but just please think about it. Remember your speech when you became a Senator, about how you knew you needed to change your tone and way of engaging with people? You've stepped up another rung. Please think about it.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Apr 12, 2019 18:25:47 GMT -6
Can I state clearly that I am not the fully-installed Seneschál, nor is my Government anything but provisional, until the provisions of OrgLaw XII.2 are fulfilled - i.e. that the King gives me the oath of office. The whole Proclamation Crisis established the principle that if the King doesn't do something, he cannot be deemed to have done so. So I have not discounted the possibility that the election has been "pocket vetoed" by the King - that he has no intention to name me Seneschál, that he's intending to run out the clock and then call a fresh election. We'll see.
But honestly, if I thought that I would get any good faith or cooperation from the King or from the RUMP party in return for refraining from mockery and coarse language, I would. But the whole history of Sir Alexandreu's political method since Reunision, and probably before it, is to paint all efforts of the Talossan Centre-Left to reform our nation as threats to the nation's existence or as part of a corrupt power-grab. And when we get exasperated by this approach, we are painted as mean bullies. I'm wise to these tricks and I just wish people wouldn't fall for them.
But anyway:
The simple answer is "because Title J of El Lexhatx is the law". As to "a different Wittenberg"... you'll forgive me for being massively confused, because I thought the whole problem here was precisely the RUMP's refusal to move away from King John's Private Wittenberg because they like it here and they like John's moderating rules!
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Apr 12, 2019 18:47:07 GMT -6
But honestly, if I thought that I would get any good faith or cooperation from the King or from the RUMP party in return for refraining from mockery and coarse language, I would. But the whole history of Sir Alexandreu's political method since Reunision, and probably before it, is to paint all efforts of the Talossan Centre-Left to reform our nation as threats to the nation's existence or as part of a corrupt power-grab. And when we get exasperated by this approach, we are painted as mean bullies. I'm wise to these tricks and I just wish people wouldn't fall for them. Miestra, no one is calling you a mean bully. I am saying that you are very likely the next Seneschal of the country, the leader and head of our government, and so you need to exercise the self-control not to casually call the head of state a "penis." Not because you want some "credit," and not because it's even the nice thing to do, but because you are the leader of the country and you need to be responsible in word and deed. If you do not want this responsibility, then don't accept it. But if you want to be a leader, then you need to lead. The simple answer is "because Title J of El Lexhatx is the law". As to "a different Wittenberg"... you'll forgive me for being massively confused, because I thought the whole problem here was precisely the RUMP's refusal to move away from King John's Private Wittenberg because they like it here and they like John's moderating rules! Read my past few posts in this thread, please.
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Ian Plätschisch
Senator for Maritiimi-Maxhestic
Posts: 4,001
Talossan Since: 3-21-2015
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Post by Ian Plätschisch on Apr 12, 2019 19:25:32 GMT -6
How does the incoming Government plan to address the effects that splitting between two boards could have on activity? Are you concerned that MZs will fail to show up for work at the relocated Chambers, or that they won't drop by here to participate in the social and cultural aspects? It's the same reason I think there should be fewer provinces; activity builds on it itself, and so if you split up the pool of activity between two forums (or eight provinces for that matter), there will be less activity for additional activity to be built upon. Given that focus is on Governmental activity at the moment, non-political activity on Witt would probably bear the brunt of whatever impact there is, although I do think the argument that separating political and non-political activity may make the non-political activity less divisive is a good one.
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Ian Plätschisch
Senator for Maritiimi-Maxhestic
Posts: 4,001
Talossan Since: 3-21-2015
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Post by Ian Plätschisch on Apr 12, 2019 19:30:56 GMT -6
The folks who keep insisting on the splitting of the boards having a deleterious effect on overall activity, you keep saying "could." It "could" happen. Do you have anything solid to demonstrate that this might be an actual problem? Well, given that we've never had two forums before, it would be hard to produce any proof, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't think about the potential consequences. I think the theories that have been presented about how such a thing might occur are solid enough that they should be considered, even though I hope they turn out to be untrue. I think there are already enough people who pop onto Witt infrequently enough that they would be well served by a newspaper, without having to manufacture an artificial hindrance to finding out what is happening in Talossa, or creating extra work for a potential journalist.
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Ian Plätschisch
Senator for Maritiimi-Maxhestic
Posts: 4,001
Talossan Since: 3-21-2015
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Post by Ian Plätschisch on Apr 12, 2019 19:35:41 GMT -6
We probably need to move forums anyway, so this might not be applicable here, though. To be clear; if this were to occur, Witt would still exist at least to direct people to the new forum, right? Otherwise I reckon the results would be disastrous.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Apr 12, 2019 19:39:17 GMT -6
We probably need to move forums anyway, so this might not be applicable here, though. To be clear; if this were to occur, Witt would still exist at least to direct people to the new forum, right? Otherwise I reckon the results would be disastrous. I would assume so.
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Ian Plätschisch
Senator for Maritiimi-Maxhestic
Posts: 4,001
Talossan Since: 3-21-2015
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Post by Ian Plätschisch on Apr 12, 2019 20:10:28 GMT -6
How does the incoming Government plan to address the effects that splitting between two boards could have on activity? I'm not the one making extraordinary claims, so I'm not the one who has to provide extraordinary evidence. With respect, this is a classic example of how conservative politicians use rhetorical " FUD" tactics to try to stop initiatives, and it behooves more sensible people on the political spectrum not to pass on scare-stories. Conservatives: "the government's plan will cause the GRAVES TO OPEN and the GHOSTS OF OUR ANCESTORS to emerge and COMPETE IN ATHLETIC SPORTS" Moderates: "How does the incoming Government plan to address the possible influx of high-jumping ghosts that their plan could cause?" Geez, I guess it's good I didn't let the door of Kenwood House hit me on the way out. I would hardly say that the concerns about decreased activity are "extraordinary." I have admitted that submitting hard evidence of this claim would be difficult, but the logic seems at least reasonable to me. If you would like to debunk it, be my guest, but implying either that I am trying to sandbag you, or that I have been yet again duped by the RUMP, is not going to cut it (though the latter did let me reminisce for a moment about the heady days of November and December 2015). I understand that Telecomuna is the backup plan in case the King doesn't agree to hand Witt over to Talossa, but any plan must be well considered, and advocating that it be so is not simply a conservative rhetorical tactic. Um, not to be a RUMP apologist or anything, but this debate is literally happening over AD's bill, which tries to address the exact same issues you just said he isn't trying to address. During the 50th Cosa I did indeed express to the Cabinet my agreement with Sir Cresti and his "Telecomuna We Hardly Knew Ya Act," but I was met with opposition. I didn't think anyone's opinion had changed since then and I didn't think fighting over it was a good use of my time or political capital when so much other stuff was going on. When you are spending all your time on wholesale Organic reform, you actually don't have all the time in the world. When you are governing in a coalition, you actually don't have all the power in the world. I really do wish you the best in your upcoming Government, in which you will not have to deal with either of those inconveniences. I sense that not being associated with the Government for the first time in my Talossan political life will be a real hoot though.
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Post by Viteu Marcianüs on Apr 12, 2019 21:16:40 GMT -6
Alex, don't lecture Dame Schivâ on civility when you masquerade your insults behind pretty language. And speaking of etiquette,refer to her properly as Dame Schivâ.
I won't be supporting this bill. Nobody gets to regulate government forums without a change of the Organic Law. So as far as I'm concerned,this bill can go have intercourse with itself.
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Ian Plätschisch
Senator for Maritiimi-Maxhestic
Posts: 4,001
Talossan Since: 3-21-2015
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Post by Ian Plätschisch on Apr 12, 2019 21:27:39 GMT -6
And speaking of etiquette,refer to her properly as Dame Schivâ. I thought we weren't supposed to do that (and I also remember that if you do use the "Dama" title, you still use the first rather than last name) (Citation for both claims: talossa.proboards.com/thread/13245/forms-address )
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