Ian Plätschisch
Senator for Maritiimi-Maxhestic
Posts: 4,001
Talossan Since: 3-21-2015
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Post by Ian Plätschisch on Nov 25, 2018 14:21:48 GMT -6
III.5.4, which currently reads:
is amended to read:
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Nov 28, 2018 18:38:02 GMT -6
Why do you want to prohibit me from casting the traditional public ballot, which I prefer and think is fun?
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Ian Plätschisch
Senator for Maritiimi-Maxhestic
Posts: 4,001
Talossan Since: 3-21-2015
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Post by Ian Plätschisch on Nov 28, 2018 20:33:34 GMT -6
Why do you want to prohibit me from casting the traditional public ballot, which I prefer and think is fun? For the same reason that other countries don't allow it; it prevents anyone from offering or requesting a certain public vote in exchange for something else.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Nov 28, 2018 21:27:18 GMT -6
Is that a problem in Talossa? Are you taking away my ability to cast a public vote to prevent a purely hypothetical problem?
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Ian Plätschisch
Senator for Maritiimi-Maxhestic
Posts: 4,001
Talossan Since: 3-21-2015
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Post by Ian Plätschisch on Nov 29, 2018 12:37:38 GMT -6
Is that a problem in Talossa? Are you taking away my ability to cast a public vote to prevent a purely hypothetical problem? Well, I haven't seen any public instances of it in the rather short time I have been in Talossa, but the point of this sort of transaction is that no one else would know about it. What I do know is that plenty of other countries have experienced sufficient problems with this to make a secret ballot mandatory.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Nov 29, 2018 15:39:29 GMT -6
Is that a problem in Talossa? Are you taking away my ability to cast a public vote to prevent a purely hypothetical problem? It's always interesting that the RUMP are the only party who see no problem with the public ballot; when indeed something like 80-90% of the RUMP vote in elections come from public ballots. I have stated before that public balloting has an effect of surveillance - one's "friends" and party comrades can see not only that you voted (which is fair enough) but how you voted, and can - howsoever politely and informally - express their disappointment in you if you don't join the Loyalty Parade. And you have a snowball effect where no-one wants to be the last person to join the Parade. The public ballot allows improper social pressure to be put on voters. Yes, what I'm saying is that the only reason public voting still exists is that the RUMP would wither to a micro-party without it. Don't believe us? Well, just look at how the RUMP ceased to be a majority party immediately after secret balloting become an option. Let's have one election with a compulsory secret ballot, and if the RUMP vote doesn't drop by half, I'll stand corrected.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Nov 29, 2018 18:23:53 GMT -6
Yes, what I'm saying is that the only reason public voting still exists is that the RUMP would wither to a micro-party without it. Don't believe us? Well, just look at how the RUMP ceased to be a majority party immediately after secret balloting become an option. Let's have one election with a compulsory secret ballot, and if the RUMP vote doesn't drop by half, I'll stand corrected. I am delighted to inform you that more than half of the RUMP already votes secretly, so you do indeed stand corrected. And we didn't even have to take anyone's rights away to find out 11% of FDT votes were public, 23% of MRPT votes were public, 50% of MTGA votes were public, and 46% of RUMP votes were public. Overall, 29% of votes were public. Of RUMP voters, most public voters were longtime party stalwarts like myself, Sir Cresti, Trotxa, Lord Hooligan, etc... people unlikely to be secretly yearning to vote some other way. Almost a third of the country avails themselves of the right to vote publicly. It seems unfair to strip that right away based on drastically incorrect assumptions and the old paleo-derivativist "other countries do it" argument.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Nov 30, 2018 13:03:11 GMT -6
Forgive the confusion. What I meant to say is that 80-90% of public ballots are RUMP votes, not the other way around.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Nov 30, 2018 13:18:31 GMT -6
Still wrong. In fact, not even a majority of public ballots were cast by RUMPers. Only 44%. A majority of the people whose rights you're trying to take away aren't even in the political party you're trying to target.
The third of our citizens who vote publicly shouldn't lose their rights based on faulty assumptions.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Dec 9, 2018 16:49:54 GMT -6
Hopefully the silence of more than a week on this means that this effort is being set aside, since it would not successfully hurt the party against which it is aimed.
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Lüc da Schir
Senator for Benito
If Italy wins a Six Nations match I will join the Zouaves
Posts: 4,125
Talossan Since: 3-21-2012
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Post by Lüc da Schir on Dec 9, 2018 17:08:03 GMT -6
I hope that's not the case and we can get to vote on this. I for all am not supporting this because I want to target/hurt the RUMP or anything, mind you. Aladna publicly voted "Present" last time and she's still alive and well, so I don't think there's an argument to be made for the RUMP Loyalty Parade anymore. It's simply high time we got a fully secret and automated ballot, and nothing would stop people to publicly reveal how they voted anyway.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Dec 9, 2018 17:17:54 GMT -6
I strongly feel that if we are going to take away the rights of so many citizens who prefer to vote this way, we better have a really really good reason for doing so.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Dec 9, 2018 17:23:18 GMT -6
Silence doesn't indicate withdrawal. It may, for example, indicate that trolling from the opposition is best ignored.
I am still keen to "pseudo-Clark" this whenever the Túishac'h decides to call for it.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Dec 9, 2018 17:32:54 GMT -6
Silence doesn't indicate withdrawal. It may, for example, indicate that trolling from the opposition is best ignored. I am still keen to "pseudo-Clark" this whenever the Túishac'h decides to call for it. Wait, it didn't even give you pause that the fundamental facts on which you based your argument for this bill are hilariously wrong?
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Dec 9, 2018 17:41:01 GMT -6
Silence doesn't indicate withdrawal. It may, for example, indicate that trolling from the opposition is best ignored. I am still keen to "pseudo-Clark" this whenever the Túishac'h decides to call for it. Wait, it didn't even give you pause that the fundamental facts on which you based your argument for this bill are hilariously wrong? My count of the public votes from the last election: RUMP 9, ModRad 4, Present 3. That's either 69% RUMP or 53% RUMP - which is about halfway between my half-baked recollection and your apparently "rebuttal".
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