Let's talk about our provinces

[Alèx Soleighlfred]

So we better mask the inadequacy with bells and whistles than really go for it and do a systemic change?

Besides, yes, I don't think it will damage our cultural historical treasures. The provincial culture won't go. It will be both preserved in history and live on in future, because merging of provinces doesn't kill culture: culture lives in the people. Or do you think any given change destoys eons of hard fought cultural heritage? Did Reunision do irreversible damage to Talossan culture? Did annexion of Cézembre destroy once and for all some purely continental aspect of Talossa? Whatever we do, something will change, but nothing will be gone forever.

I don't think we should be afraid of fundamental shifts. But I also don't think we should hurry. Such changes should be thought-through carefully, and in the meantime, we have plenty of time to implement smaller solutions and see if they work. If they don't, we'll have some viable bigger project by that time. I'm glad to know we can find our consensus in this.

[Sir Alexandreu Davinescu]

Jun 23, 2018 0:47:19 GMT -6 Alèx Soleighlfred said:

So we better mask the inadequacy with bells and whistles than really go for it and do a systemic change?

Yes, duh. You start with things that aren't risky and don't involve difficult systemic change.

Jun 23, 2018 0:47:19 GMT -6 Alèx Soleighlfred said:

Besides, yes, I don't think it will damage our cultural historical treasures. The provincial culture won't go.

Without looking anything up, can you tell me anything about Bradford Province? No, you can't. Nor could you -- I'd bet -- tell me anything about any other former province or merged province (like Port Maxhestic). And there's nothing wrong with that -- why would you know anything about them, after all?

Jun 23, 2018 0:47:19 GMT -6 Alèx Soleighlfred said:

Did Reunision do irreversible damage to Talossan culture?

Yes, duh. The Republic had a valuable and proud independent republican tradition of self-governance and culture, and now its citizens are part of a constitutional monarchy. It's not gone, of course, -- only changed as an inevitable consequence, preserved in our history and in a living form in one of our provinces and many of our citizens. And I'm not saying it was not a good thing -- it was excellent and awesome. But it's foolish to pretend that Reunision, or any other big systemic change, doesn't have costs and risks.

Look, what is your argument? That merging provinces will have no risks and no costs? Can we just agree to try the easy and risk-free stuff first?

[Alèx Soleighlfred]

First, I'm not against trying easy and risk-free stuff. My point is that years go, and all we do is postpone change in favor of those small things. Year after year we "try this, try that" and nothing works. We've _already_ tried a lot of things. Of course, I won't do any obstacles if someone goes ahead and tries a bunch of new small measures, but chances are, if you do the same thing 101st time, the result would be the same as 100 previous times.

I know there were such provinces as Bradford and Maxhestic. Bradford didn't last long and later ceased to exist as a province, only i don't remember exactly what happened to it: that's why historical records are around. Some people, more interested in history, would know that by heart, and that's completely fine.

First, you say that "yes, duh, Reunision did irreversible damage", and then you say that the tradition "only changed as an inevitable consequence". So, following the logic of your reply on my question on Reunision, I conclude that to you, "change" is equivalent to "irreversible damage". I could comment on that, but I better abstain. Perhaps some better politician than me could use that as a propaganda weapon.

[Sir Alexandreu Davinescu]

We actually have not tried that much, which is why you only vaguely gesture at this long list of things we've supposedly tried. As I summed before, what we've tried has been some advertising (AdWords, micronational forums, etc), game competitions (make our new logo, here's a chess tournament, etc), and structural reforms. There hasn't been that much more, although I'm sure I've left things out.

Worryingly, you don't have many actual reasons why your proposal might work to make people more active. Let's say that there are three provinces instead of eight, ok. Why would people participate more?

More worryingly, you seem to think it's revolutionary or bad to admit that change has costs. Many times, like in Reunision, those costs are paltry compared to what we gained... but it's foolish to just pretend they don't exist. Tell you what, you go over to Miestra and tell her that nothing was lost when the Republic and Kingdom merged. Tell her that it wasn't brave for Republicans to enter in that process, risking a lot of stuff they'd fought to support for years. You go tell her there were no costs, and come tell me what she says.

Yes, change does bring about irreversible damage -- and sometimes that's easily worth it, and sometimes it's not.

This is not controversial or difficult. If we proposed changing Talossa's name to Soleighlfredaville, then are you honestly going to tell me that this change wouldn't lose something in the process? Or will your response be that people "more interested in history" could just look up the original name of Talossa, and thus there's be no loss to our country or our culture?

Again, I'm not opposed to the idea in principle -- obviously I'm not, since I've been a vocal advocate for Maritiimi-Maxhestic absorbing one of our neighbors -- but you yourself called it a radical idea. Let's try some new things and non-radical things first, not stuff that is radical, risky, and doesn't offer a lot of benefits.

[Vitxalmour Conductour]

Most of my activity could be considered provincial, but very little of it happens here.

[Ian Plätschisch]

My mind is far from made up on this matter, but I will say that the path from reducing the number of provinces to increased activity is, in my mind, fairly clear.

Each province has a certain number of people who will be active no matter what (I’ll call these people the “core”). The more people in the core, the more activities that province will have. The more activities within the province, the more people who are outside the core will participate. Since merging provinces will increase the size of the core in each, doing so has a good chance of increasing activity.

I agree that some culture will be lost, and we shouldn’t overlook that. However, I will point out that culture doesn’t have much value if no one ever does anything with it.

[Sir Alexandreu Davinescu]

That's definitely something that could happen, and I'm open to the idea. But let's forestall deciding until we've tried some other stuff. My list of possibilities doesn't have to be the only one, but at this point I think it should be clear that we need to start thinking outside of the box and towards new things... and "rearrange the provinces" is definitely something we've tried before.

We need more ways to do Talossa, not a different arrangement of the same dwindling number of people doing it.

[Alèx Soleighlfred]

I would be the first to oppose renaming Talossa to Soleighlfredaville. That'd be some bulky tonguetwister.

Well, true, we could try more of course, and we should. You're trying to portray me as saying that changes have no cost and we should run around doing mad things just for fun. That's not what I'm saying.

I'm not going to go bother Miestra with such silliness. Obviously something changed, something was lost (for example, the Republic, though it's still there in history as a heritage). But, if my memory serves me well, it was a change sought for. Even more, it was _initiated_ by the Republic. Who would weep over the costs now? Yes, the costs were uncomparable to what was gained.

Now to your primary point, on how exactly having less provinces will kickstart activity. Obviously it will not, why would it? Try to follow my logic.

Our 8 provinces are inactive for two reasons: 1) our country is inactive in whole 2) the activity that _is_ there is too thinly distributed

Then, additionally, there's this self-maintaining cycle: lack of activity results in even bigger lack of activity, while boost of activity results in even more activity. There's some activity echo that exists.
When a small amount of activity is distributed into small particles that is provinces, some of them end up with no activity at all, which, in turn, keeps people from being active because that's how our human psychology works. Someone has to actively kickstart something, but chances are no one will.

Less provinces work in such a way: the activity that is in the country is _less_ thinly distributed. 100 divided by 8 is less than 100 divided by 3 okay? And then, this self-maintaining cycle would work in a positive route, increasing the existing activity, not decreasing it. I hope you understand what I am trying to convey, my wording might be quite bulky here. Tell me if my point isn't clear.

So to some up, there are three factors of provincial inactivity: A - overall Talossan inactivity, B - thin distribution of still remaining activity, C - little activity results in even less activity (and vice versa).

Your proposals address factors A and C. Mine address B and C. What's the problem? What else can you suggest to address B?

And, Vitx, sometimes you and S:reu Taiwos seem like the only persons worried about provincial life. I admire your dedication.

[Ian Plätschisch]

Jun 24, 2018 11:58:19 GMT -6 Sir Alexandreu Davinescu said:

We need more ways to do Talossa, not a different arrangement of the same dwindling number of people doing it.

I’m not very fond of your ideas to use political power to encourage culture. Part of my objection is just the derivatist in me (if you want power, you should have to get elected), but more than that, we risk turning culture into a chore. I don’t think that the culture produced in pursuit of power would be very valuable; there have to be ways to grow it organically.

[Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN]

Jun 23, 2018 18:34:35 GMT -6 Sir Alexandreu Davinescu said:

Without looking anything up, can you tell me anything about Bradford Province? No, you can't. Nor could you -- I'd bet -- tell me anything about any other former province or merged province (like Port Maxhestic). And there's nothing wrong with that -- why would you know anything about them, after all?

Bradford Province was formed in the mid-90s when Danihél Lauriér and another citizen were living in an apartment in Vuode Province but didn't want to be under KR1's puppet provincial government.

Port Maxhéstic was the "personal fantasy fiefdom" of Count I. von Metáira and was performatively "German" in culture, like Benito is Italian today.

You see, I know this because I became interested in the Talossa back when the history of Talossa was compulsory reading for new citizens. The problem is that post-KR1, the incoming government made a deliberate decision not to keep an offical history, let alone make knowledge of history mandatory, because it suited them to smooth over historical controversies. I strongly opposed this at the time and I still do.

This is not strictly relevant to the current topic of provincial mergers but, as I say, I hate seeing the bad decisions of previous governments glossed over by those responsible for those decisions. And, yes, I am saying that I would want to prioritise a History of Talossa 2004-2018. If we could get volunteers. Gödafrïeu Válcadác’h's work on the events of 2003-2004 leading to the National Schism (foundation of the Republic) is a necessary first step.

[Alèx Soleighlfred]

I let my fantasy fly and here's one possible proposal.

1) Transatlantic Province of Maritiimi-Maxhestic and Cézembre (short: Maritiimi-Cézembre - MC)

Cantons:
- Maritiimi
- Vilatx-Freiric
- Port-Maxhestic
- Zoneu Auþorisat
- Zoneu Intredit
- Falklands Noveu

2) Northern Province of Vuode, Dandenburg and Atatürk (short: Vuode-Atatürk - VA)

Cantons:
- Flúvia-Montevúdio
- Abbavilla
- Vuode
- Dun Cestour

3) Central Province of Benito and Florencia (short: Benito-Florencia - BF)

Cantons:
- Garibaldi
- Mazzini
- Thor
- Eifflerion
- King Florence

4) Western Province of Maricopa and Fiôvâ (short: Maricopa-Fiôvâ - MF)

Cantons:
- Taglheiria
- Zuerieiria
- Sandadia
- Ovestia
- Cüféir
- Las Înaltàns Maxhéstici

So, 4 Provinces and 21 Cantons.

The reasoning is such: each province is a merger between two previously existing provinces, in each pair there's arguably a less active and a more active province. Such a system will make sure that the "core", about which Ian wrote so nicely, exists in each of four provinces and is even stronger than once used to be. Such a system could be called "Third Cantonization", analogously to the Secont Cantonization which happened before Florencia and Fiôvâ came to exist.

I also wanted to ensure there are certain cultural ties between unified provinces. For instance, Florencia and Benito used to be one, Fiôvâ was made partly of once Maricopan territory, Cézémbre and M-M are just best friends you know.

[Sir Alexandreu Davinescu]

Jun 24, 2018 12:14:17 GMT -6 Alèx Soleighlfred said:

You're trying to portray me as saying that changes have no cost and we should run around doing mad things just for fun. That's not what I'm saying.

No. Read what I wrote. I not only do not oppose the idea or think it's mad, I think it's a fine idea if the easier and less risky stuff doesn't work. Let's discuss using our actual words, not what we wish the other person had said.

Jun 24, 2018 12:14:17 GMT -6 Alèx Soleighlfred said:

I'm not going to go bother Miestra with such silliness. Obviously something changed, something was lost (for example, the Republic, though it's still there in history as a heritage). But, if my memory serves me well, it was a change sought for. Even more, it was _initiated_ by the Republic. Who would weep over the costs now? Yes, the costs were uncomparable to what was gained.

Thank you. Yes, there were costs and they were well-worth it!

Jun 24, 2018 12:14:17 GMT -6 Alèx Soleighlfred said:

So to some up, there are three factors of provincial inactivity: A - overall Talossan inactivity, B - thin distribution of still remaining activity, C - little activity results in even less activity (and vice versa).

Your proposals address factors A and C. Mine address B and C. What's the problem? What else can you suggest to address B?

Addressing A and C will bring in more people to each province, some of whom will be active, yielding exactly the same result as your proposal: more active people in each province. And we should definitely consider doing that if other things don't work. But we should try the easy and less risky stuff first, right?

Jun 24, 2018 12:26:51 GMT -6 Ian Plätschisch said:

Jun 24, 2018 11:58:19 GMT -6 Sir Alexandreu Davinescu said:

We need more ways to do Talossa, not a different arrangement of the same dwindling number of people doing it.

I’m not very fond of your ideas to use political power to encourage culture. Part of my objection is just the derivatist in me (if you want power, you should have to get elected), but more than that, we risk turning culture into a chore. I don’t think that the culture produced in pursuit of power would be very valuable; there have to be ways to grow it organically.

If we come up with them, I'll support them. But I think a lot of the stuff I outlined would be fun on its own terms. More to the point, the other ideas I can think of... well, we tried them. If I had any other ideas, I'd slap them up here and add them to my list, believe me. Changing the fundamental dynamics to use the thing that people like (politics) to kickstart the thing that people want to like (culture) is the only way I can think to do it at this point.

Jun 24, 2018 14:11:09 GMT -6 Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN said:

I would want to prioritise a History of Talossa 2004-2018. If we could get volunteers. Gödafrïeu Válcadác’h's work on the events of 2003-2004 leading to the National Schism (foundation of the Republic) is a necessary first step.

[/div][/quote]
If you want to write a history, definitely do it. Recruit other people to do it, although the list of people with the capability and time is probably extremely small. Let me know if I can help.

Beyond that, how about supporting my ideas here? Like switching the military to a cultural enterprise?

[Vitxalmour Conductour]

Jun 24, 2018 14:26:26 GMT -6 Alèx Soleighlfred said:

2) Northern Province of Vuode, Dandenburg and Atatürk (short: Vuode-Atatürk - VA)

Cantons:
- Flúvia-Montevúdio
- Abbavilla
- Vuode
- Dun Cestour

3) Central Province of Benito and Florencia (short: Benito-Florencia - BF)

Cantons:
- Garibaldi
- Mazzini
- Thor
- Eifflerion
- King Florence

You know, if Vuode and Benito merged, it'd calm things down around Benito.

[Alèx Soleighlfred]

Beyond that, how about supporting my ideas here? Like switching the military to a cultural enterprise?

I think those ideas (especially the military one, I'm quite intrigued by that) deserve a separate thread. And in this thread we would think over costs and caveats of provincial rearrangement, so that, when/if time comes, we had a thought-through and agreed upon solution and procedure. See, I'm not pushing to do that overnight.

Vitx, please let me know (here or via PM) what do you mean? I have to admit I'm not quite informed of any tensions in Benito.
(Merger between Vuode and Benito is a possibility of course, thought it cuts Atatürk alone, I don't know how to go around this yet.)

[Vitxalmour Conductour]

Jun 24, 2018 22:31:43 GMT -6 Alèx Soleighlfred said:

Beyond that, how about supporting my ideas here? Like switching the military to a cultural enterprise?

I think those ideas (especially the military one, I'm quite intrigued by that) deserve a separate thread. And in this thread we would think over costs and caveats of provincial rearrangement, so that, when/if time comes, we had a thought-through and agreed upon solution and procedure. See, I'm not pushing to do that overnight.

Vitx, please let me know (here or via PM) what do you mean? I have to admit I'm not quite informed of any tensions in Benito.
(Merger between Vuode and Benito is a possibility of course, thought it cuts Atatürk alone, I don't know how to go around this yet.)

It's not a particularly big deal, but several Benitians protested the movement of the US state of Ohio to Vuode from Benito, because the move made more difficult our ongoing efforts to foster a local Benitian subculture. (Because any converts we persuaded would be Vuodean instead.)

My comment was more of an in-joke for any of my fellow Benitians that wandered in. Sorry.