The Civil Service Ribbon Act

[Ian Plätschisch]

I will also take you up on your offer to debate.

May 4, 2017 21:50:10 GMT -6 Eðo Grischun said:

a) Could this lead to Talossa being viewed from the outside as being militant in nature and could it actually lead to us becoming militant in nature?

Given that the vast majority of these ribbons have nothing to do with the military, I see no reason why this would occur.  If immigrants were concerned about everyone wearing ribbons in their signature, surely they would ask about it.

May 4, 2017 21:50:10 GMT -6 Eðo Grischun said:

c) This will never stand as Organic. The language of the Bill permits the Senate, The Cosa, The Prime Minister, any other minister and the military to bestow Honours. Organic Law states only The King may grant Honours.

d) In the same vein as C: You have bumped the Crown's Organic Privilege from Organically Absolute to "third in priority".

I reckon the court would shred this up if it managed to pass Ziu muster.

Please let me know which section you are referring to.  The best I can find is III.2:

Section 2

The King is the symbolic head of the nation. The nation democratically grants the King and his successors certain Royal Powers: The right to declare national holidays, grant titles of nobility, make the annual Speech From the Throne on the 26th of December (or at other times when events warrant), to veto bills (or Prime Dictates), to issue Writs of Dissolution and Warrants of Prorogation for the Cosâ, to grant pardons and commute sentences, to confer awards and decorations, to appoint the Seneschál after elections, and to appoint Governors of Territories upon the advice of the Seneschál.

I could be wrong, but as far as I know, the Organic Law makes no mention of any other honors, meaning that any body that wanted to could bestow honors so long as they are not titles of nobility.  Indeed, MPF already brought up the Senatorial Medal of Honor, which has never been ruled inOrganic.  The Prime Minister's Patriotic Award and the Prime Minister's Literary Awards have also never been ruled inOrganic.

Also, nowhere does the Organic Law specify the location in which honor ribbon must be located if it is given by the King.  Just because the King is entitled to give them doesn't mean they need to go in a particular spot in order to be Organic.

[Marti-Pair Furxheir S.H.]

Thanks Ian,.. Eðo really surprised me because I thought I had done enough research...

[Dame Litz Cjantscheir, UrN]

May 5, 2017 15:44:38 GMT -6 Ian Plätschisch said:

<snip>

I could be wrong, but as far as I know, the Organic Law makes no mention of any other honors, meaning that any body that wanted to could bestow honors so long as they are not titles of nobility.  Indeed, MPF already brought up the Senatorial Medal of Honor, which has never been ruled inOrganic.  The Prime Minister's Patriotic Award and the Prime Minister's Literary Awards have also never been ruled inOrganic.

Not entirely true as you missed a line in the quoted section of the OrgLaw which states:

Article III

Section 2
The King is the symbolic head of the nation. The nation democratically grants the King and his successors certain Royal Powers: The right to declare national holidays, grant titles of nobility, make the annual Speech From the Throne on the 26th of December (or at other times when events warrant), to veto bills (or Prime Dictates), to issue Writs of Dissolution and Warrants of Prorogation for the Cosâ, to grant pardons and commute sentences, to confer awards and decorations, to appoint the Seneschál after elections, and to appoint Governors of Territories upon the advice of the Seneschal.

Secondly, the King has in the past, if my memory serves me correct, vetoed a bill which passed both houses which granted a title/award as it infringed on the Crown's right of fons honorum as a royal prerogative. I'll try and dig up a link when I'm at a PC/not caught for time.

[Dame Litz Cjantscheir, UrN]

May 6, 2017 11:07:55 GMT -6 Dame Litz Cjantscheir, UrN said:

May 5, 2017 15:44:38 GMT -6 Ian Plätschisch said:

<snip>

I could be wrong, but as far as I know, the Organic Law makes no mention of any other honors, meaning that any body that wanted to could bestow honors so long as they are not titles of nobility.  Indeed, MPF already brought up the Senatorial Medal of Honor, which has never been ruled inOrganic.  The Prime Minister's Patriotic Award and the Prime Minister's Literary Awards have also never been ruled inOrganic.

Not entirely true as you missed a line in the quoted section of the OrgLaw which states:

Article III

Section 2
The King is the symbolic head of the nation. The nation democratically grants the King and his successors certain Royal Powers: The right to declare national holidays, grant titles of nobility, make the annual Speech From the Throne on the 26th of December (or at other times when events warrant), to veto bills (or Prime Dictates), to issue Writs of Dissolution and Warrants of Prorogation for the Cosâ, to grant pardons and commute sentences, to confer awards and decorations, to appoint the Seneschál after elections, and to appoint Governors of Territories upon the advice of the Seneschal.

Secondly, the King has in the past, if my memory serves me correct, vetoed a bill which passed both houses which granted a title/award as it infringed on the Crown's right of fons honorum as a royal prerogative. I'll try and dig up a link when I'm at a PC/not caught for time.

Update: The Bill that was vetoed was The Order of the Bonacon Act

Wiki link: wiki.talossa.com/Law:The_Order_of_the_Bonacon_Act

Link to veto: talossa.proboards.com/thread/4240/final-clark-results-april

Apr 28, 2009 11:21:35 GMT -6 King John said:

Apr 23, 2009 15:05:21 GMT -6 Adm. T.M. Asmourescu, O. Ben. said:

39RZ19- The Order of the Bonacon Act

WHEREAS Talossa loves Gloria Estefan, and wishes to retain her as National Entertainer, and

WHEREAS despite this, Talossa is entertained by multitudinous entertainers and entertainments, and

WHEREAS one of these entertainments is the Bonacon, a noble beast of storied past, and

WHEREAS the Bonacon seems a fitting analogue for much celebrity, and

WHEREAS Talossa desires a way of rewarding those who bring it joy,

THEREFORE, the Ziu directs that:

i) An order of merit be founded, called the Order of the Bonacon, open to Talossans and non-Talossans alike, who, to qualify, must be considered suitably entertaining;

ii) That, excepting the nomination contained in section iii of this Act, all inductions shall only operate by public declaration of the Seneschal, who is to consider nominations brought to him or her in both public and private. Such declarations are to contain suitable (and suitably entertaining) explanations of the reason for induction.

iii) That the first inductee to the Order of the Bonacon is to be Charlotte Rae, a Milwaukeean, aka Mrs Garrett in Diff'rent Strokes and the Facts of Life, and most recently a major guest star in four episodes of the final season of ER.

Uréu q'estadra sa:
Owen Edwards, MC-PP (Cézembre)

Article III, Section 2 of the Organic Law lists certain Royal Powers:

The nation democratically grants the King and his successors certain Royal Powers: The right to declare national holidays, grant titles of nobility, make the annual Speech From the Throne on the 26th of December (or at other times when events warrant), to veto bills (or Prime Dictates), to issue Writs of Dissolution and Warrants of Prorogation for the Cosâ, to grant pardons and commute sentences, to confer awards and decorations, to appoint the Seneschál after elections, and to appoint Governors of Territories upon the advice of the Seneschál.

Further, it is clear that these prerogatives are not simply things that the King MAY do but which might also be done by some other magistrate or constitutional body. They are Powers exclusive to the Crown.

It seems quite clear to me, also, that (as indisputably cool as such an Order might be) induction into it would constitute an "award and decoration" within the meaning of the OrgLaw and Talossan tradition.

Therefore, in defense of the Organic Law and of the Royal prerogatives, it is my inexpressible pleasure to VETO 39RZ19.

Ça el Regeu non piaça!

— John R

[Ian Plätschisch]

Oops. I would, however, disagree with the King that the Organic Law precludes other bodies from giving awards, as none of the other awards given by other bodies have been ruled inOrganic (in fact, not even your example was ruled inOrganic, it was just vetoed because the King thought it was).

[Ián Tamorán S.H.]

We have to be careful of wording. An act (etc.) says what it says, and not what we would subsequently like it to say, or what, without careful inspection, we thought it did say.

The King and his successors are granted certain Royal Powers: <list> ... but this does not say that only the Monarch may exercise these powers. The wording could have been ... Only to the King and his successors ... but that was not what was said in that Act.

If that was the intention of that article in Organic Law then we could now reword it to have that meaning, but (IMHO) as it stands these powers are not, by the act quoted, restricted solely to the Monarch.

[Dame Litz Cjantscheir, UrN]

May 6, 2017 12:14:28 GMT -6 Ian Plätschisch said:

Oops. I would, however, disagree with the King that the Organic Law precludes other bodies from giving awards, as none of the other awards given by other bodies have been ruled inOrganic (in fact, not even your example was ruled inOrganic, it was just vetoed because the King thought it was).

Never said it was inOrganic or even Organic, just that the King had vetoed a bill on the subject before.

Additionally, I don't remember any of the other awards by other bodies being challenged in the CpI (to date) to determine the Organicity of such awards. Just because they do, doesn't automatically mean it is Organic, but it is merely presumed to be until proven otherwise. As Washington J, dissenting said in Ogden v. Saunders, 25 U.S. 213 (1827), "It is but a decent respect due to the wisdom, the integrity, and the patriotism of the legislative body by which any law is passed to presume in favor of its validity until its violation of the Constitution is proved beyond all reasonable doubt."

[Marti-Pair Furxheir S.H.]

Plus, to add to what Dame Litz said...

Anything not explicitly forbidden should be, in theory, allowed, no?

[Ián Tamorán S.H.]

May 7, 2017 10:03:39 GMT -6 Marti-Pair Furxheir S.H. said:

Plus, to add to what Dame Litz said...

Anything not explicitly forbidden should be, in theory, allowed, no?

A legal system may be like the UK, where everything is permitted unless expressly forbidden, or like France, where everything is forbidden unless expressly permitted.

I trust that Talossa is, in this respect, more like the UK!

[Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun]

I do not like patriotism per se, because I find that it gives rise to populist, nationalist, and eventually racist tendencies, but I do think that Talossa needs to feel more interconnected, more together; more of an entity, perhaps. While this bill is at heart a good idea, I see a few problems with it:

I must first echo my colleague Grischun’s sentiment. With this, we shove people into visible classes, and categories. Is that really what we want as, and for, our ideal and our idea of a perfect society, where has come each one of us of their own volition?

And why does everyone get some pin, or star, for being something? Why is it important whether a Seneschal has served six months, or merely four? Why does every Seneschal automatically get a pin for having been a Seneschal? Should these symbols, apart maybe from those that EVERYBODY may wear, notwithstanding their political and apolitical achievements, not be reserved for truly remarkable deeds? Those who signed the original document of secession of the Republic of Talossa, those who stood up to KRI, those who returned to Talossa via Reunision, etc. etc. They are all respected people, and an integral and honoured part of our society. But do they need bagdes? Do they want to be able to flaunt it?

On a side note, why are you counting the time judges served by means of Cosăs? Judges are entirely removed from any term of Cosă, as mandates a society where the Powers of State are separate.

[Marti-Pair Furxheir S.H.]

May 8, 2017 7:27:24 GMT -6 Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun said:

I do not like patriotism per se, because I find that it gives rise to populist, nationalist, and eventually racist tendencies, but I do think that Talossa needs to feel more interconnected, more together; more of an entity, perhaps. While this bill is at heart a good idea, I see a few problems with it:

ok

I must first echo my colleague Grischun’s sentiment. With this, we shove people into visible classes, and categories. Is that really what we want as, and for, our ideal and our idea of a perfect society, where has come each one of us of their own volition?

Right now, aren't we all different anyway?

Some of us had a lot of positions, others almost none, and that's fine! I mean, we could have a badge for the Whisky and Sci-Fi club! or another for the Music club!

The idea isn't to segregate people, but to reward those that are involved!

The idea I had, was to encourage people to participate more, like, "Hey, if I do X, I will get another badge!"

This is a true and tested method, I mean, the boy scouts do it too!

And why does everyone get some pin, or star, for being something? Why is it important whether a Seneschal has served six months, or merely four? Why does every Seneschal automatically get a pin for having been a Seneschal?

It's a brainstorm.. perhaps the badges are too easy to achieve, but the idea is to reward exceptionalism with pins Perhaps we can tweak them enough so that the PINs are indeed extrordinary.

Should these symbols, apart maybe from those that EVERYBODY may wear, notwithstanding their political and apolitical achievements, not be reserved for truly remarkable deeds?

I agree for the pins!

Those who signed the original document of secession of the Republic of Talossa, those who stood up to KRI, those who returned to Talossa via Reunision, etc. etc. They are all respected people, and an integral and honoured part of our society. But do they need bagdes? Do they want to be able to flaunt it?

That's up to them! The badges are not mandatory...

On a side note, why are you counting the time judges served by means of Cosăs? Judges are entirely removed from any term of Cosă, as mandates a society where the Powers of State are separate.

Very good point! How would you reward them? 2 years of service?

[Eðo Grischun]

Dame Litz has pretty much replied for me. I, too, was remembering the veto. Looking back on all that now, with hindsight ... yep. ok.

The idea I had, was to encourage people to participate more, like, "Hey, if I do X, I will get another badge!"

This is a true and tested method, I mean, the boy scouts do it too!

The idea is novel. And yes, it certainly is a tried and tested method. It is also the backbone of many games and hobbies.

Let me clear on my thoughts, MPF.

WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT THE BOY SCOUTS! This is the Ziu, government and courts you're talking about. Want to run a badge system, yep, go do it in the clubs and organisations. Start a sticker collecting scheme or a card collecting game. Sure, the tried and tested method has a bazillion applications if you really want to do it.

But, please don't do it to the National institutions.

Very good point! How would you reward them? 2 years of service?

You miss the point. We wouldn't reward them. Not like this.

I dunno, maybe I just dislike the image conjuring in my mind of elected politicians, governors and court officials pinning arrays of medals on their uniform.

[Marti-Pair Furxheir S.H.]

May 9, 2017 15:27:30 GMT -6 Eðo Grischun said:

WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT THE BOY SCOUTS! 

And yet, the New York Police department, the US military, an many countries have such badges...

Listen, I am at least TRYING something.

This is the 50th Cosa!!!! NO ONE is doing ANYTHING

[Eðo Grischun]

May 10, 2017 7:25:30 GMT -6 Marti-Pair Furxheir S.H. said:

May 9, 2017 15:27:30 GMT -6 Eðo Grischun said:

WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT THE BOY SCOUTS! 

And yet, the New York Police department, the US military, an many countries have such badges...

Harking back to my first question; this measure then would make us appear more militant.

The police and military are militant organisations and in the most modern of senses are separated from the functions of State and from the Government.
Not to mention, that it's a good idea for organisations like the police to carry a visible badge. In many a country, that doubles as their "warrant card".

Let's drag it back though, boy scouts get these badges for learning to tie knots and start fires. We cannot cite this as proof level precedent for introducing a game of Marvel sticker collection to the functions of State.

You completely fail to see the distinction even when pointed out to you.

You made me do this ... Godwins Law. Government leaders wearing badges is not equatable to the police of New York, but more like Qaddafi with his militant chest pins, badges and ribbons. Parliament members wearing ribbons is not equatable to military service, but more like National Socialist German Workers' Party members wearing a particularly designed band on their arms while all sitting in parliament chambers. This is the image perception problem I'm talking about.

It's all cool though. I guess we can pass pretty much any piece of law from now on, because, maaan let me tell you how awesome elections are going to be from now on. It's going to be like the X-Factor. Honestly, it's going to be amazing. Listen. Any newcomer trying to take my Senate seat will be laughed off with their measly 4 Clarks worth of service badges to my years worth of gold pins. Wait! How many pieces of legislation has my opponent crafted and passed? Twenty pins? Oh fuck, I forgot to pass dozens of shite laws over those gold pin years. This little scamp has twenty legislation pins to my four. People won't hear me when I tell them those few Acts include laws that form the backbone of privacy law in this Kingdom or that the massive cross-party Article XIX Ammendment does indeed contain un-credited lines authored by me. They will only care that this guy "get's loads done". 18 grammar correction bills and 2 nonsense laws about Beer and Squirrels.

Sorry, I'd prefer to be a quality driven craftsman than numbers driven hack.

Listen, I am at least TRYING something.

This is the 50th Cosa!!!! NO ONE is doing ANYTHING

Fair play. See me on my points and I'll help. Let's find a more suitable arena.

[Ian Plätschisch]

May 10, 2017 8:25:03 GMT -6 Eðo Grischun said:

Let's drag it back though, boy scouts get these badges for learning to tie knots and start fires.

Woah now, I am probably more proud of this badge than any other badge I have ever received: