Ian Plätschisch
Senator for Maritiimi-Maxhestic
Posts: 4,001
Talossan Since: 3-21-2015
|
Post by Ian Plätschisch on Aug 19, 2015 19:14:41 GMT -6
First, I think if the King objects to an amendment and the Cosa and Senäts send it to referendum over his objection, it's only fair that the reasons for the King's objection be provided to the people as well. The people will make the final decision, but they should get to hear both sides before deciding. Wait...isn't this why the King can submit 50-word statements?
|
|
Sir C. M. Siervicül
Posts: 9,636
Talossan Since: 8-13-2005
Knight Since: 7-28-2007
Motto: Nonnisi Deo serviendum
|
Post by Sir C. M. Siervicül on Aug 19, 2015 20:17:46 GMT -6
Also, what do you mean by absolute majority of the Senate? At least 5 per votes? That's what I was thinking, yes. Wait...isn't this why the King can submit 50-word statements? Hmm. Yes, I suppose so. But 50 words don't allow much in the way of reasoned argument. It's more like a puffed-up campaign slogan. Which is pretty much what the parties' 50-word statements are on the Cosa ballot. I guess that's one reason I voted against the 50-word statement bill.
|
|
Ian Plätschisch
Senator for Maritiimi-Maxhestic
Posts: 4,001
Talossan Since: 3-21-2015
|
Post by Ian Plätschisch on Aug 19, 2015 20:42:21 GMT -6
Would 100 words suffice?
|
|
Sir C. M. Siervicül
Posts: 9,636
Talossan Since: 8-13-2005
Knight Since: 7-28-2007
Motto: Nonnisi Deo serviendum
|
Post by Sir C. M. Siervicül on Aug 19, 2015 22:19:13 GMT -6
Meh. It's better than 50, to be sure. I don't see any need to be miserly with the King's words. But I don't expect I'd vote against the amendment over a word count.
|
|
|
Post by Munditenens Tresplet on Aug 19, 2015 23:48:28 GMT -6
After a quick read of this bill, here is my one question: What would happen if an amendment passed the Ziu, and a special election was held listing that amendment as the only item on the ballot in the middle of a Cosa term?
It seems to me that the Monarch could object after the referendum was held and the amendment was passed, but doing so would throw the whole process created by this amendment out of whack.
|
|
Ian Plätschisch
Senator for Maritiimi-Maxhestic
Posts: 4,001
Talossan Since: 3-21-2015
|
Post by Ian Plätschisch on Aug 20, 2015 4:30:24 GMT -6
After a quick read of this bill, here is my one question: What would happen if an amendment passed the Ziu, and a special election was held listing that amendment as the only item on the ballot in the middle of a Cosa term? It seems to me that the Monarch could object after the referendum was held and the amendment was passed, but doing so would throw the whole process created by this amendment out of whack. Which is why Sir Cresti proposed wording that made royal assent necessary to hold a special election. Tacit approval would come if the King chose not to object by the deadline
|
|
|
Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on Aug 20, 2015 5:04:11 GMT -6
Yes, please don't forget to add tacit approval to holding the referendum, by some deadline. But approval should be considered to have given before the GE, i.e. after the last Clark.
|
|
Ian Plätschisch
Senator for Maritiimi-Maxhestic
Posts: 4,001
Talossan Since: 3-21-2015
|
Post by Ian Plätschisch on Aug 20, 2015 15:55:19 GMT -6
The requested changes have been made. Please let me know if there are any more concerns or suggestions.
|
|
|
Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Aug 20, 2015 17:07:53 GMT -6
|
|
|
Post by Françal Ian Lux on Aug 20, 2015 19:43:14 GMT -6
3/4 is ri-di-cu-lous. Ridiculous. Also: If the King objects to an amendment, he may, after it has been passed by the Ziu but before the 23rd of the month preceding the last Clark of the Cosa term, he may send it back to the Ziu with his objections, and that amendment will be placed unchanged into the next Clark. You have written "he may" twice there. Furthermore, if the King can object it, and return it to the Ziu with his objections, then it should not be required that the objected bill be placed in the Clark unchanged. The Ziu may well recognise the King's objections as sensible, and may well choose to change the amendment. I will agree with Epic here. 3/4 is pretty ridiculous. I like it in some parts, but eh
|
|
Ian Plätschisch
Senator for Maritiimi-Maxhestic
Posts: 4,001
Talossan Since: 3-21-2015
|
Post by Ian Plätschisch on Aug 20, 2015 19:50:08 GMT -6
i will agree with Epic here. 3/4 is pretty ridiculous. I like it in some parts, but eh As soon as you show me a more liberal bill that the RUMP will support, I will be all ears
This is no longer what Epic thinks, anyhow. Once he noticed that a bill could be passed over the King's objections by the regular 2/3 after waiting a bit, he was more supportive of the bill.
I hope "eh" means an abstention at worst, because voting contra to such a compromise would in effect be voting per to the King maintaining his unilateral power.
|
|
|
Post by Munditenens Tresplet on Aug 20, 2015 20:05:39 GMT -6
After a quick read of this bill, here is my one question: What would happen if an amendment passed the Ziu, and a special election was held listing that amendment as the only item on the ballot in the middle of a Cosa term? It seems to me that the Monarch could object after the referendum was held and the amendment was passed, but doing so would throw the whole process created by this amendment out of whack. Which is why Sir Cresti proposed wording that made royal assent necessary to hold a special election. Tacit approval would come if the King chose not to object by the deadline Could you point out to me the clause where it says royal assent is needed to hold a special election? I see the tacit approval clause, but again, the deadlines prescribed in this bill are all based on the idea that every amendment passed will be voted on in the next General Election.
|
|
Ian Plätschisch
Senator for Maritiimi-Maxhestic
Posts: 4,001
Talossan Since: 3-21-2015
|
Post by Ian Plätschisch on Aug 20, 2015 20:10:04 GMT -6
Section 1 An amendment to the Organic Law shall be made by proclamation of the King after a vote of two-thirds in the Cosa with approval of the Senäts, the tacit or explicit assent of the King, and approval of the majority of voters participating in a referendum on the question of the amendment no later than during the next scheduled general election following the approval of the Ziu and King.
If the King explicitly assents, a special election can be held.
|
|
|
Post by Munditenens Tresplet on Aug 20, 2015 20:21:16 GMT -6
Section 1 An amendment to the Organic Law shall be made by proclamation of the King after a vote of two-thirds in the Cosa with approval of the Senäts, the tacit or explicit assent of the King, and approval of the majority of voters participating in a referendum on the question of the amendment no later than during the next scheduled general election following the approval of the Ziu and King.
If the King explicitly assents, a special election can be held. That still doesn't apply to the next several sections of the amendment, and it certainly doesn't apply to holding a special election.
|
|
Ian Plätschisch
Senator for Maritiimi-Maxhestic
Posts: 4,001
Talossan Since: 3-21-2015
|
Post by Ian Plätschisch on Aug 20, 2015 20:25:39 GMT -6
Section 2 If the King objects to an amendment, he may, after it has been passed by the Ziu but before the 23rd of the month preceding the last Clark of the Cosa term, send it back to the Ziu with his objections. The sponsor may then abandon the bill, amend the bill, cede the bill to another Member of the Ziu, or submit the original bill to the next Clark. In cases of modification, the bill shall constitute a new amendment. Otherwise, and in cases of unamended cession to another Member of the Ziu, the bill is considered a continuation of the previously rejected amendment. If the amendment passes the Ziu again with a three-fourths majority in the Cosa with approval of the Senäts, including at least five për votes, the amendment goes to referendum and the King must assent. However, if the amendment does not meet that threshold, it is placed unchanged into the first Clark of the next Cosa. If the amendment again passes the Ziu with a two-thirds majority in the Cosa with approval of the Senäts, the amendment goes to referendum and the King must assent. Whenever the King is forced to assent, he may issue a statement of no more than 150 words explaining his objection, will shall be included on the referendum.
Section 3 Amendments passed for the first time in the last Clark of a Cosa term may be sent back by the King before the next election begins. Per XV:2, the amendment may be submitted to the first Clark of the next Cosa, and needs only a two-thirds majority to proceed to referendum, and the King must assent.
Whenever the King is made to assent, would it not be his explicit consent?
If not, could you please give me an example of how to implement better language?
|
|