A casual discussion of the ESB Immigration request

[Capt. Sir Mick Preston]

My fellow Senators -

As our Mençéi I believe that we need to discuss a current issue.

I am opening a conversation about the recent petition of a former Citizen to be granted Citizenship again. I am doing this, in that according to Talossan Statute 35RZ22, Clause 8 reads as such:

" At any time before a Grant of Citizenship is conferred, the Sovereign, or members representing at least one-third of the Cosâ by seats, or members representing at least one-third of the Senäts, or any single Justice of the Uppermost Cort may petition the Chancery that the said Grant of Citizenship shall not be issued until such issuance shall be ordered by an act of the Ziu.

I bring this to our attention to discuss if there are 3 Senators ( One third of the Senate) would wish to block said petition.

I would request, to be concise but brief, any statements made by my fellow Senators be limited to a 100 word statement. To expedite the conversation, I will limit statements to be posted in the next 5 days. After that, I would like to limit the discussion to an additional 5 days. This will give us a total of 10 days to discuss this petition.

I open the floor to discussion.

[Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN]

If I might, estimat Mençei; I rise now to make it clear that I will not be seeking to block Eiric Börnatfiglheu's re-admission request.

Eiric committed immigration and electoral fraud and lied to his friends as well as to our nation. I still have my issues with him personally for that. But - as I have known him as a creative, if sometimes erratic, Talossan and twice Seneschál of the Republic - I think that he should go before the Uppermost Cort and take his chances as to what punishment they deem appropriate, and if they deem it appropriate (either now or after some period of time), to be readmitted to citizenship.

If Eiric is to be kept out of Talossa (for a short or long or permanent term) for his admitted crimes, this should be a judicial decision made by the Cort; not a political decision made by this House or by our Cosâ colleagues. To block Eiric at this stage would have the same effect as those who wanted him to leave Talossa and never be seen again; turn a case that should be dealt with by justice into ostracism and peer pressure. That is not appropriate for a nation such as ours.

Let the Cort decide as to whether and when this criminal should be readmitted; not the anger of a few Senators or MCs. Thank you.

[Capt. Sir Mick Preston]

I thank the Senator from Fiôvâ for her input.

[Tric'hard Carschaleir]

I must admit I am conflicted about this issue. I advocate giving a second chance to anyone who asks for it, however he did commit electoral fraud and sock-puppeting crimes, which are both pretty serious offences.

I have never met him or talked to him personally, so maybe I'm less qualified than others to pitch in on this issue. I think we should let him re-immigrate on the condition that he stand trial at the Uppermost Court for the crimes he has committed and accept any punishment the Court deems appropriate.

[Capt. Sir Mick Preston]

In that it has been 5 days since I opened this discussion , I will now begin to close it.
Before I do that, I would like to add my opinion.

ESB might have had the best of intentions in his mind, when he started. Or, perhaps, he saw an opportunity to create havoc, or to make others look like fools.

We can't really debate that. I don't believe we'll ever get an honest answer from him. In the comments I have read of why he did what he did was to expose the flaws in our immigration policies. He then tried to explain away his actions to personal life crisis. I will not pass judgement on his personal life, in that I do not feel it has any bearing on the issue.

If we took ESB on the face value of his reasoning, then I could see if he created 3 or 5 new immigrant "personalities". After they were granted Citizenship, he could have stopped at that moment, to expose his ruse.

But he didn't.

Instead, he continued to create more "personalities". He created new "immigrants", using the names and information of his friends and families. He falsified data. He took a modicum of truth of those people , and created persona to be Talossan Citizens. Again, not 3 or 5 times - but 17 times. He mislead all of us to think that 17 other people joined our Kingdom. He sought membership in multiple political parties. He even gained membership to the MC, with a false persona. He voted in a General Election, committing voter fraud.

I'm not even going to start with what he did in other areas of our Kingdom.

The final charge I would lay at his feet is that he betrayed friends. They may forgive him for his transgressions. To me, that strikes deep into the core of ESB. He lied. He lied to the Immigration Ministries. He lied to the SoS ( so he could vote). He lied to the different Political Parties. He lied to the College of Arms. I particularity find it egregious that he lied to the Senator from Fiôvâ. She was one of his staunches allies.

He lied to all of us. From the King , to the Citizens - he lied.

I try to be a fair and honest person. One mistrust I can forgive. I can't forgive the many, many Mistrusts, the intentional actions of a person over a 6 month period - where he lied to everyone around him. I, personally, find that unforgivable.

======================

I will allow one more day of discussion, and then I will ask for a vote to close the discussion.

[Glüc da Dhi]

I'm not sure if Im still on time, but there's a few things I would like to say about this.

I'm very conflicted about this. Do I want ESB to be a Talossan again? No, I don't. I don't think I believe in unforgivable actions, but when ESB recently showed up again, I felt that I haven't forgive him. Strange, because I wasn't one of the people most strongly affected by his actions. None of his sockpuppets were in the MRPT, I wasn't one of his close friends, I wasn't in the CoA, so I cant really explain why I havent forgiven him, other than that I just dont trust him.

I was reading through some of the posts made by Benedict Stamford, one of his sockpuppets today. Admittedly some of his posts made me laugh. In some ways his character was a good parody. What he did though, was not funny. Using just this one sockpuppet, he insulted people I thought were his friends, make the RUMP look bad for no reason by joining them and saying ridiculous stuff, created nasty angry discussions between other Talossans. The revelation that Benedict Stamford was really ESB was one that shocked me the most. I really disliked this character, but now it seems I was just of many fools, getting upset because of a parody, thinking it was real.

The reason I was looking at the remarks of his sockpuppets is because I thought I saw similarities between the behaviour of Benedict Stamford and Elo Cutor. I dont know if ESB is behind Elo Cutor, I dont have any real evidence to support it in any case, only some vague indications.

What I'm trying to say though is that I still don't trust ESB. As others have pointed out, his current explanation for his actions doesnt match his previous explanation and it doesn't match his actual actions. If he hadnt been found out, he would have had so many sockpuppets during the elections that he would almost certainly been able to dramatically influence the outcome. The results of that might have been disastrous. ESB taught us that we can't trust each other, that we need strict regulations if we want everything to be fair, that everything we know about each other might just be a big lie. Thankfully there are many fair and honest Talossans who show that this isn't the case. I may disagree politically with many of you, Sir Mick, Dame Miestra, Sir Trotxa, but at least I know that you all want the best for Talossa and would not cheat your fellow Talossans for your own pleasure. There needs to be some level of trust for us to survive.

Good reasons for me not to want ESB back as a Talossan.

However what I want, emotionally, is not the only thing that matters. The question is not just a personal one, but also a political one. What is best for Talossa?

There needs to be some level of trust, but there also needs to be order and respect for our institutions. ESB hasnt been tried, he hasnt been convicted. Is it up to the Senate to punish ESB, when our legal institutions have not been able to consider the case?

If ESB's punishment would be a year of self imposed banishment followed by some community service and few years of civil disability, I would not be happy about that. Yet, somehow I feel it would be the right choice to let the courts decide.

I will not be one of the Senators calling for a halt in his immigration procedure. If it comes to a vote on his citizenship, I don't know yet how I will vote. Probably I will vote in favour of ESB, but I wouldn't be happy about it.

[Brad Holmes]

Fool me once, shame on you.
Fool me twice, shame on me.

I don't want to give the second chance.

[Trotxâ]

Esteemed Mençéi and honorable Senators;

The Senator from Fiôvâ says, "To block Eiric at this stage would have the same effect as those who wanted him to leave Talossa and never be seen again". I ask, What is wrong with that?

In a small, close-knit community like ours, what is the worst thing that can be done? Most of us don't live in close-enough proximity to commit physical violence against each other. Slander and calumny can be bad, but our Organic right of Free Speech means that statements that hurt people personally in the cause of stirring the pot must be tolerated and endured.

Those things are bad, but they're not the worst.

No, the worst thing is to destroy Trust. A lack of trust is an acid that can eat away at a small group like ours. And we're being asked to let the beaker of acid get thrown back into our community.

As some of our citizens never fail to point out, Mad King Ben's actions in 2004 destroyed the trust that his subjects had in him as a sovereign, as a leader and as a friend. KR1 would not leave Talossa, so Talossa left him. Madison's destruction of trust was a groundbreaking event that still affects my fellow Talossans even today.

Perhaps those who lived through the madness of the Great Slander have grown callused to the effects of the destruction of trust. Perhaps their thought is, "Hey, I lived through it once. It is waaaaaay more minor than it seemed at the time."

But for those of us who came later, the ESB Affair (while a pale shadow of the events that led to the founding of the Republic) is a shattering of trust like we've never seen before. Unfortunately, it is a new and unpleasant experience.

And now, so soon still after the horrible events of the ESB affair, we are being asked to take him back. But it doesn't feel like we're being asked. It feels like ESB is being forced down our throats. This is happening too soon, and it is going too fast.

So, I ask the Talossans with more experience than me to help slow things down. Now is the time for calm reflection. At some point (not now) we should be able to start deliberations. It will take time for some of us to be able to have a rational discussion about the ESB Affair. The very conflicted nature of the statements by my fellow Senators is evidence of the need to take it slowly.

I have one request of S:reu Eiric S. Börnatfiglheu: Please withdraw your application for re-admittance. While I can appreciate your enthusiasm for Talossan citizenship (the best thing money can't buy), now is not the time for this issue. They say time heals all wounds. We know your intent. Please give us some time.

I yield,

Trotxâ Betiñéir, Senator for Vuode

[Marti-Pair Furxheir S.H.]

I do not know what we should do with ESB because I wasn't there when the ESB affair occured, but I was at the center stage of the Halloween crisis and the founding of the Republic.

I would personally feel REALLY REALLY anxious should KR1 decide to come back and people were accusing me of being in bad faith: the guy I was considering a close friend 1 year earlier was now trying to ruin my business which was then helping feed 14 children (including 5 Dandelions!)

If ESB made you feel the same way, then I can't support him coming back unless serious rehabilitation is first done.

[Capt. Sir Mick Preston]

S:reu Furxheir - I appreciate your opinion , but I must remind you that to address the Senate, we ask that you refrain from commenting here.

[Marti-Pair Furxheir S.H.]

Sorry... I missed the fact that this was the Senate...

I am a former Senator and got used to it.

**Ashamely walks out of the room**