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Post by D. N. Vercáriâ on Dec 31, 2013 8:10:48 GMT -6
And, in all fairness, you don't have to come to a decision immediately - take your time.
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Post by D. N. Vercáriâ on Dec 31, 2013 8:12:06 GMT -6
Just wait till the Capitán shows up, I bet he will notice this thread.
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Xhorxh Asmour
Talossan since 02-21-2003
Wot? Me, worry?
Posts: 1,754
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Post by Xhorxh Asmour on Dec 31, 2013 8:12:10 GMT -6
I don't really blame you, Eovart, but the truth is, the law has been broken and the results could certainly be different. The only way to get things fixed is to have a re-run.
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Post by Éovart Andrinescù on Dec 31, 2013 8:13:51 GMT -6
I'll consult with el Capitan when he's around and we can get the ball rolling on a re-run election and ensure a fair result this time.
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Post by D. N. Vercáriâ on Dec 31, 2013 8:27:14 GMT -6
I don't really blame you, Eovart, but the truth is, the law has been broken and the results could certainly be different. The only way to get things fixed is to have a re-run. It might even be worse... Fiôvâ's Senatorial Election Law has been applied correctly, but it may be not in sync with the OrgLaw when it comes to the duration of the election.
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Post by Éovart Andrinescù on Dec 31, 2013 8:30:09 GMT -6
I don't really blame you, Eovart, but the truth is, the law has been broken and the results could certainly be different. The only way to get things fixed is to have a re-run. It might even be worse... Fiôvâ's Senatorial Election Law has been applied correctly, but it may be not in sync with the OrgLaw when it comes to the duration of the election. I must admit to being focused on Fiova's laws rather than the OrgLaw when it came to this election
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Post by D. N. Vercáriâ on Dec 31, 2013 8:52:46 GMT -6
It might even be worse... Fiôvâ's Senatorial Election Law has been applied correctly, but it may be not in sync with the OrgLaw when it comes to the duration of the election. I must admit to being focused on Fiova's laws rather than the OrgLaw when it came to this election It's not your job to check the constitutionality of our laws - that's up to the Cunstaval, AFAIK.
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Post by C. Carlüs Xheraltescù on Dec 31, 2013 8:59:54 GMT -6
Righto, let's see what we have here... I don't believe that our electoral law contradicts any part of the OrgLaw, and I think the mechanisms that were used to conduct the election were followed correctly. That isn't, however, to say that they cannot be improved upon.
Jum, the Royal Chancery mistakenly thought that it would be conducting the election when it wasn't legally speaking supposed to. The election did happen and was followed in as much as notice was given on Witt (and on Facebook). An e-mail should, however, have been sent out to citizens of this province. I dare say we'll know for next time.
A decision will be made in the near-future, regarding whether we should re-run the election; it's not a decision I will be making alone, or indeed one that I will be taking a lead in making. For those of you who believe this will stall the legislative process, your fears are without grounds. As Capitan, I am empowered to appoint an individual to serve as Senator if we decide that another election is necessary.
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Post by D. N. Vercáriâ on Dec 31, 2013 9:05:59 GMT -6
Who will take the lead in making the decision, then?
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Post by C. Carlüs Xheraltescù on Dec 31, 2013 9:18:49 GMT -6
Who will take the lead in making the decision, then? Do you really think it would be appropriate for me to do so given that one of the candidates is a member of the party which I lead? The ultimate decision will rest with the Provincial Chancery which will benefit from my advice, and I have no doubt the advice of many others including the Landsdoom and the office of the Cunstaval.
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Istefan Perþonest
Cunstaval to Fiôvâ; Regent of the University of Talossa
Posts: 1,024
Talossan Since: 2-21-1998
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Post by Istefan Perþonest on Dec 31, 2013 15:30:40 GMT -6
I must admit to being focused on Fiova's laws rather than the OrgLaw when it came to this election It's not your job to check the constitutionality of our laws - that's up to the Cunstaval, AFAIK. And it was my view (with which the courts might disagree) that "simultaneous" did not require that the periods be identical, but merely that the Senate election happen during the duration of the Cosa election. The courts may find my judgment incorrect of course. However, my general policy as Cunsteval has been, when a provision of the OrgLaw seems to me to admit a reasonable reading in favor of a law that Fiova wishes to enact, to read it that way. (That certainly got me in some trouble once . . .) I do note the Organic simultaneous requirement is the trickiest part of a re-vote, since a re-vote not simultaneous with the Cosa election is not Organically a senatorial election. It would, I believe, have to be constructed as a provincial referendum on who the Capitan appoints to a vacancy in the office of Senator, and such an appointment would only last until the next Cosa election, instead of a full senatorial term.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Dec 31, 2013 16:41:52 GMT -6
Er, excuse me? In the first post in this thread, the SoS has already declared a Senator of Fiôvâ, i.e. me, in accordance with The Fiôván Elections and Referendum Law, Title III section 4. So a "re-run" would mean vacating that decision - which there is no provision for the SoS, the Capitán or the Cunstavál to do.
All this "consultation" is nonsense because we have separation of powers in this province, and the only authority which can vacate my election as Senator is the Landsdoom, by declaring that the SoS acted illegally. Why is Talossa so freakin' averse to letting the judicial powers do their thing?
The election was flawed and it will have to be run MUCH better next time, and we should have all advised the ProvSoS more clearly. But the election, IMHO, was legal. The ballot was "available to all Fiôvâns" in that it was published here on this forum, and the election period was set by the General Assembly by law. Nothing was done in secret. It's just that some people haven't bothered checking Fiôvâ in a while. Also, the authors of the law (Carlüs and I) messed up by not noticing that Fiôvân elections are only 1 week, half the time of Ziu elections, and they must be made consistent.
Xhorxh, go ask Grubi (our Chief Justice of the Landsdoom) for an injunction. Go on. Otherwise I'm sitting and voting in the Senäts as soon as the King opens the new Ziu.
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Post by D. N. Vercáriâ on Dec 31, 2013 16:52:24 GMT -6
It's not your job to check the constitutionality of our laws - that's up to the Cunstaval, AFAIK. And it was my view (with which the courts might disagree) that "simultaneous" did not require that the periods be identical, but merely that the Senate election happen during the duration of the Cosa election. The courts may find my judgment incorrect of course. However, my general policy as Cunsteval has been, when a provision of the OrgLaw seems to me to admit a reasonable reading in favor of a law that Fiova wishes to enact, to read it that way. (That certainly got me in some trouble once . . .) I do note the Organic simultaneous requirement is the trickiest part of a re-vote, since a re-vote not simultaneous with the Cosa election is not Organically a senatorial election. It would, I believe, have to be constructed as a provincial referendum on who the Capitan appoints to a vacancy in the office of Senator, and such an appointment would only last until the next Cosa election, instead of a full senatorial term. I agree, that "simultaneous" requirement isn't non-ambiguous in any way. It might be interesting (although not inevitable) to ask the Courts to come up with a decision that clarifies the issue. As for a re-vote, that might be similar to a by-election, wouldn't it? Just guessing. 2014 is only 8 minutes away over here, so that's a more pressing issue now. Happy New Year all.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Dec 31, 2013 16:54:59 GMT -6
Yeah, there are no provisions in either Talossan or Fiovan law for by-elections. I'm 11 hours and 54 minutes into 2014 and my head hurts a bit. Flirtinis all round!
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Dec 31, 2013 17:12:17 GMT -6
Also, did everyone forget that we have very specific instructions in the elections law - Title II, Section 8 - for how to call for an election re-run if someone feels like their democratic rights have been violated? It's nothing to do with the Capitán, SoS or Cunstavál. Only the Landsdoom can do it.
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