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Post by Antaglha Xhenerös Somelieir on Jul 16, 2013 20:56:07 GMT -6
Hello my Fellow Tallosans, do any of you question the reasons of having Prime Dictates? Because i currently find myself doing just that. It seems to me if all The Primeminister has to do is to write up a Prime Dictate Bill, a d just get His Majestys concent, then there is really no point in having the Ziu. Laws of the land, in a Parlementry System is supposed to concent as a WHOLE on passing legislation, not just two people. Personally, i feel that Prime Dictate laws should be made illegal for they are un-democratic. For the ELECTED BODY if the Ziu DID NOT concent to said Decrees. It seems to me that the primeminister is just a watered down King if they have this power. For who is ablw to aregue against any Lrime Dictates without causing a Constitutional Crisis? I strongly Urge the Ziu to look into this further. For it does not seem right that the Promeminister can go above The Ziu's head without reproach. Therefore i suggest that sonething be done to rectify this. Possibly, if an emergency arises the Primeminister can call an Emergency Zui session which votes immediantly on the matter to approve or dissmis the idea. Or all Party Leaders within the Ziu, The Primeminister, all cabinate members and the SoS and King must Sign a PD ti make it into law, for at least that has cross parlementry support then. It just needs to be a fairer and democratic way if resolving an issue that is crrently in place. But this is only my opinion thanks for reading. (Sorry for any mistakes) Evan
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Capt. Sir Mick Preston
Capitán of the Zouaves
Posts: 6,511
Talossan Since: 9-21-2006
Knight Since: 10-12-2010
Motto: Cuimhnichibh air na daoine bho'n d'thainig sibh
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Post by Capt. Sir Mick Preston on Jul 16, 2013 21:15:04 GMT -6
Hello my Fellow Tallosans, do any of you question the reasons of having Prime Dictates? Because i currently find myself doing just that. It seems to me if all The Primeminister has to do is to write up a Prime Dictate Bill, a d just get His Majestys concent, then there is really no point in having the Ziu. Laws of the land, in a Parlementry System is supposed to concent as a WHOLE on passing legislation, not just two people. Personally, i feel that Prime Dictate laws should be made illegal for they are un-democratic. For the ELECTED BODY if the Ziu DID NOT concent to said Decrees. It seems to me that the primeminister is just a watered down King if they have this power. For who is ablw to aregue against any Lrime Dictates without causing a Constitutional Crisis? I strongly Urge the Ziu to look into this further. For it does not seem right that the Promeminister can go above The Ziu's head without reproach. Therefore i suggest that sonething be done to rectify this. Possibly, if an emergency arises the Primeminister can call an Emergency Zui session which votes immediantly on the matter to approve or dissmis the idea. Or all Party Leaders within the Ziu, The Primeminister, all cabinate members and the SoS and King must Sign a PD ti make it into law, for at least that has cross parlementry support then. It just needs to be a fairer and democratic way if resolving an issue that is crrently in place. But this is only my opinion thanks for reading. (Sorry for any mistakes) Evan Evan, really - your message is buried under the typos and misspellings. You really should take the time to spell check your messages. You lose the impact of your idea, because we spend a lot of time trying to figure out what you are saying. With that said - I think I agree with you. I have always felt that PD's should only be about honorifics. The marking of a passing of a great worldly ( or Talossan) statesman, the recognition of a special event, or comment on a moment in time. I don't feel that a PD should dictate procedure or policy. This is my opinion, obviously.
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Post by Antaglha Xhenerös Somelieir on Jul 16, 2013 21:26:08 GMT -6
I would have spell checled it if i could find the spell check on here. (Ive no means to spell check it on my phone im afraid) i do apologise for all the mistakes though. And im not the best speller in the world even without the typos, which again i appologise for. (Also its a nightmare correcting mistakes manually on a touchscreen phone) but yeah. At least you see the point. I do think that we need as a nation to limit the Prime Dictates to pritty much ceremonial. And emergency summons of the Ziu.
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Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă
Puisne (Associate) Justice of the Uppermost Court
Fraichetz dels punts, es non dels mürs
Posts: 4,063
Talossan Since: 9-23-2012
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Post by Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă on Jul 16, 2013 22:02:21 GMT -6
Any Prime Dictate can be overridden by the Ziu if they so choose.
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Capt. Sir Mick Preston
Capitán of the Zouaves
Posts: 6,511
Talossan Since: 9-21-2006
Knight Since: 10-12-2010
Motto: Cuimhnichibh air na daoine bho'n d'thainig sibh
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Post by Capt. Sir Mick Preston on Jul 16, 2013 22:33:04 GMT -6
I would have spell checled it if i could find the spell check on here. (Ive no means to spell check it on my phone im afraid) i do apologise for all the mistakes though. And im not the best speller in the world even without the typos, which again i appologise for. (Also its a nightmare correcting mistakes manually on a touchscreen phone) but yeah. At least you see the point. I do think that we need as a nation to limit the Prime Dictates to pritty much ceremonial. And emergency summons of the Ziu. Depending on your operating system on your phone, if you are running an Android OS, I strongly suggest the app "Swiftkey" . If not, I honestly suggest you take the time to spell-check you comments. Take the time to correctly spell your words, and make a readable comment to the the posts. In not doing so, it's as if you don't care if your audience can read, much less understand your comments. It appears that you expect the reader to decipher your comments before they can respond to them. To ME, it's just like the ZRT deciding that instead of researching a Law or concept, they post something unintelligible about a law or concept., and expect the rest of us to decipher what they are saying. How about - instead of posting a message that requires the rest of us to figure out what you are saying, instead of posting gibberish - and take the time to show us respect, by a spell checked message?
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Post by Béneditsch Ardpresteir, O.SPM. on Jul 17, 2013 2:03:26 GMT -6
A PD is a law, no doubt. It takes care of exigencies and the Government may make them whether there is a ongoing Cosa or not... and reduces the time taken for Hoopering and passing it.
However it is my considered opinion that a PD should automatically be placed in the list of business of the next Cosa and may be vetoed by the Ziu. As soon as a PD is passed, it should be assumed as Hoopered and the citizens would be in their right to comment on the same.
BenArd, the lawyer
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Sir C. M. Siervicül
Posts: 9,636
Talossan Since: 8-13-2005
Knight Since: 7-28-2007
Motto: Nonnisi Deo serviendum
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Post by Sir C. M. Siervicül on Jul 17, 2013 3:23:44 GMT -6
However it is my considered opinion that a PD should automatically be placed in the list of business of the next Cosa and may be vetoed by the Ziu. As soon as a PD is passed, it should be assumed as Hoopered and the citizens would be in their right to comment on the same. I've had a similar idea. The only difference is that I think the Ziu should be required to ratify the PD by affirmative vote for it to have continuing legal effect, rather than merely giving the Ziu the opportunity to overturn the PD.
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Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă
Puisne (Associate) Justice of the Uppermost Court
Fraichetz dels punts, es non dels mürs
Posts: 4,063
Talossan Since: 9-23-2012
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Post by Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă on Jul 17, 2013 7:38:50 GMT -6
Evan, you may not be aware of this, but processes similar to Prime Dictates are common in many nations. In the United States, for example, the President can issue an Executive Order which has a similar effect to a law passed by Congress. I will say this, however, I have used the Prime Dictate twice - once to restore citizenship to a former very active citizen, and the second in response to a lawsuit in the Magistracy Court to fix a law that court said had some flaws.I like Sir Cresti's idea about affirmative vote but I also feel the current system works. If the Ziu is upset about a PD, it is a simple matter for any MC to introduce a veto onto a clark and get a vote by the Ziu.
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Post by C. Carlüs Xheraltescù on Jul 17, 2013 7:50:09 GMT -6
I would have spell checled it if i could find the spell check on here. (Ive no means to spell check it on my phone im afraid) i do apologise for all the mistakes though. And im not the best speller in the world even without the typos, which again i appologise for. (Also its a nightmare correcting mistakes manually on a touchscreen phone) but yeah. At least you see the point. I do think that we need as a nation to limit the Prime Dictates to pritty much ceremonial. And emergency summons of the Ziu. Depending on your operating system on your phone, if you are running an Android OS, I strongly suggest the app "Swiftkey" . If not, I honestly suggest you take the time to spell-check you comments. Take the time to correctly spell your words, and make a readable comment to the the posts. In not doing so, it's as if you don't care if your audience can read, much less understand your comments. It appears that you expect the reader to decipher your comments before they can respond to them. To ME, it's just like the ZRT deciding that instead of researching a Law or concept, they post something unintelligible about a law or concept., and expect the rest of us to decipher what they are saying. How about - instead of posting a message that requires the rest of us to figure out what you are saying, instead of posting gibberish - and take the time to show us respect, by a spell checked message? Ironically, it's generally a bad idea to generalise like that.
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Capt. Sir Mick Preston
Capitán of the Zouaves
Posts: 6,511
Talossan Since: 9-21-2006
Knight Since: 10-12-2010
Motto: Cuimhnichibh air na daoine bho'n d'thainig sibh
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Post by Capt. Sir Mick Preston on Jul 17, 2013 8:29:28 GMT -6
Ironically, it's generally a bad idea to generalise like that. I don't think that word means what you think it means.
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Post by Antaglha Xhenerös Somelieir on Jul 17, 2013 8:43:21 GMT -6
Ok. I may be able to reply slower to avoid typo's however i cannot guareentee no spelling mistakes. Because i do not have a dictionary. And its not like i want to make mistakes etc. And ive apologised for it. And yes ill try to avoid mistakes but im unable to guareentee i wont make any. Unfortunatly. And Swiftkey? And if it costs anything i will not be able to purchase the app.
Also in rresponce to the Senchal. Yes i know that Presidents can do it. But as far as im aware in a Parlementry System with a Constitutional Monarch, i cannot think of a country which the Primeminister can pass something without it being approbed by the body he is part of. It seems like too much piwer invested in one person. But there could be a special vote conviened to approve of a PD before it becomes Law. I just disagree with the principle if it. Even though the Ziu may be able to repeal it that could take a month or two. And if the PD is entirely the wrong thing to have put down into law. The damage could have already been done and would nake it even more difficult to increase immigration due to a PD (thats a worst case senario). I may be aguing this in the wrong way. And Senchal this was not an attack on yourself. But if you can ammend or instill new legislation with just the kings Signature, regardless if wether it can be overturned or not, it still becomes law without the approval of the Legislarive body. That is what i object to. Also it seems like a power which could be abused. And could cause problems in the wrong hands. Epecially seeing as the bills cannot be instantly repealed. They would have to wait for the next clark. But until then the said PD's would have to be inforced. We need safeguards (more than we currently have) regarding PD's in my Opinion. You may not agree. And i respect that. But i felt that this is an importaint issue and warrents dicussion.
Also Senchal, you and the RUMP part are Quick to jump and say that we are not other countries when the Oposition compares Talossas practicies with Governments of its own type. Yet you lot alway compare the Government to the USA. So i now say to you. Yes The USA's President can do that. However we are NOT the united states. We are TALOSSA also our government is a parlementry body in formation. Also we do not have a President. It seems to me like the RUMP has a split personality. You want to remain a Monarchy yet you idolise the way the USA does things. It seems kind of hypocritical. The oposition in Talossa compares things to similar governmental styles because we haveva similar set up. However you lot compare us to a Republic. Its like the majority of you cant us to become whats essentially a republic but are afraid to show it. Otherwise why would you want us to be mire like the USA government? (sorry about the length. I hope it makes sence)
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Capt. Sir Mick Preston
Capitán of the Zouaves
Posts: 6,511
Talossan Since: 9-21-2006
Knight Since: 10-12-2010
Motto: Cuimhnichibh air na daoine bho'n d'thainig sibh
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Post by Capt. Sir Mick Preston on Jul 17, 2013 8:58:49 GMT -6
Ok. I may be able to reply slower to avoid typo's however i cannot guareentee no spelling mistakes. Because i do not have a dictionary. And its not like i want to make mistakes etc. And ive apologised for it. And yes ill try to avoid mistakes but im unable to guareentee i wont make any. Unfortunatly. And Swiftkey? And if it costs anything i will not be able to purchase the app. There is a free version of Swiftkey available - I have used it for about 2 years. And I need to - I have as many typos and spelling errors as you do when I don't spell check! Just ask Hooligan, or anyone that has "GTalk'ed" with me. You have some great ideas, and very valuable questions. Sometimes they get lost in translation, though!
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Jul 17, 2013 9:05:54 GMT -6
The special needs of our country occasionally necessitate swift and decisive action, S:reu Cuntainca. In times when we want justice to be swift, we sometimes bypass a Ziu that makes decisions only once a month (at maximum). Were we a large enough body that we could have a Ziu that was always in session, then we might not need PDs, but we aren't. When MPF came back to the country, it would have been sad to have to wait more than a month to re-admit him - look at all he has been doing since he got back with us! So a PD was issued. Thankfully, virtually every Seneschal has obeyed the Ziu's Prime Dictate Clarification Act, and has issued PDs that would have been overwhelmingly confirmed by the Ziu anyway. Should a Seneschal begin to abuse their power, we may rely on the King to decline to affirm the PDs - and an immediate election as the Ziu votes no confidence.
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Post by Béneditsch Ardpresteir, O.SPM. on Jul 17, 2013 10:04:09 GMT -6
However it is my considered opinion that a PD should automatically be placed in the list of business of the next Cosa and may be vetoed by the Ziu. As soon as a PD is passed, it should be assumed as Hoopered and the citizens would be in their right to comment on the same. I've had a similar idea. The only difference is that I think the Ziu should be required to ratify the PD by affirmative vote for it to have continuing legal effect, rather than merely giving the Ziu the opportunity to overturn the PD. Normally a ratification is prevalent the world over, but I found that automatic ratification would be in order here - since we always do a VoC each time. Only in case the Cosa wanted, can the PD be brought down.
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Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă
Puisne (Associate) Justice of the Uppermost Court
Fraichetz dels punts, es non dels mürs
Posts: 4,063
Talossan Since: 9-23-2012
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Post by Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă on Jul 17, 2013 10:05:01 GMT -6
The special needs of our country occasionally necessitate swift and decisive action, S:reu Cuntainca. In times when we want justice to be swift, we sometimes bypass a Ziu that makes decisions only once a month (at maximum). Were we a large enough body that we could have a Ziu that was always in session, then we might not need PDs, but we aren't. When MPF came back to the country, it would have been sad to have to wait more than a month to re-admit him - look at all he has been doing since he got back with us! So a PD was issued. Thankfully, virtually every Seneschal has obeyed the Ziu's Prime Dictate Clarification Act, and has issued PDs that would have been overwhelmingly confirmed by the Ziu anyway. Should a Seneschal begin to abuse their power, we may rely on the King to decline to affirm the PDs - and an immediate election as the Ziu votes no confidence. You raise a good point S:reu Davinescu. A PD is not an easy way to impose dictatorial powers because, unlike a dictator, there are checks and balances. If, for example, I issued a PD outlawing broccoli, two things would likely happen: The king would refuse to assent because the law is ridiculous and overreaching and/or the Cosa would vote me down in a VoC which would trigger elections. Even if the king for some reason assented, the Cosa could still vote me down in a VoC and/or the Ziu could vote to override it. Due to the fact that we have a once monthly vote in the Ziu, it is sometimes necessary to act swifter. However, the checks and balances are in place that have worked up until now. S:reu Cuntainça, if you disagree with any PD I or any other Seneschal issues, exercise your constitutional options. Of course, if you wish to change how PD's work, feel free to do something about that also but keep in mind that a PD is part of the organic law and will require an amendment to the OrgLaw and a referendum.
PDs aren't a "RUMP" thing, they are a "TALOSSAN" thing that has been utilized by nearly every Seneschal since they were created. It is one of the unique powers that make running a country work more effectively in a system like ours.
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