Trotxâ
Talossan since 10-17-2005; Knight since 11-5-2006
Deo duce, ferro comitante
Posts: 1,574
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Post by Trotxâ on Feb 25, 2012 11:47:41 GMT -6
S:reu Grischun has done our province a service by calling a Constitutional Convention. He has worked hard to write a draft of a proposed new Constitution for the greatest province in Talossa, Vuode. I don't disagree that this is needed. However, after some thought and study, I humbly suggest that starting with a Constitution is putting the cart before the horse. I recommend that we in Vuode start with a discussion of the Role and Function of Provincial Government in Talossa. We need to agree on the guiding principles before we can enshrine them in a document. We should agree on our goals, so that when we're done all our citizens can determine if we've met them. I've created a separate thread to enable this discussion. It is worth starting this discussion with a few observations: 1. For the foreseeable future, provincial populations will be small. As of today we have 13 citizens in Vuode. (I have a Cub Scout den in my Pack that has more 9-year-olds than the number of citizens here today in Vuode.) The most populous provinces are only slightly larger than twice ours. 2. Time is limited. Every Talossan has other responsibilities. No Talossan is paid for his time here. Each citizen's level of availability and participation will fluctuate. 3. Provincial issues are simple. Provinces don't need to levy war, conclude peace, contract alliances, or establish commerce. One reason Vuode's current constitution is a failure is that it is overly complex for the required functions. 4. At this level, patronage doesn't work. Due to the small populations involved, parties become cliques. Just like junior high, cliques alienate some people. Alienated people don't participate. These observations lead me to propose these guiding principles for our Constitution: 1. A provincial government should reflect the size and needs of the population. 2. A provincial government should not impose undue demands on our citizen's time. 3. A provincial government is not an appropriate venue for experiments in political science. 4. A provincial government should be simple. 5. A provincial government should have limited scope. 6. A provincial government should allow every citizen to participate. I'm sure I haven't captured everything. It is also possible for reasonable people to disagree about one or more of these principles. It is even possible that unreasonable people will disagree - we have those in Talossa too. I hope we can keep this discussion civil. Let's debate these guiding principles before we write our Constitution. Let's make a blueprint before we build the house. I look forward to your thoughts. Sir Trotxâ Betiñéir
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Post by Eðo Grischun on Feb 29, 2012 0:26:53 GMT -6
... guiding principles for our Constitution: 1. A provincial government should reflect the size and needs of the population. Agreed. So we have 13 people, obviously 20 Legislative seats is the wrong direction. How many Vuodeans are active and to which levels? The needs of the population. Interesting. Does Vuode and it's local population require any provincial governance at all? Is it that Vuode only needs a government for those once in a while things like provincial border rearrangements and constitution writing? 2. A provincial government should not impose undue demands on our citizen's time. Agreed, but I don't think we have gotten anywhere near close to breaking anybody's back with workloads yet. 3. A provincial government is not an appropriate venue for experiments in political science. I'm thinking further into this. 4. A provincial government should be simple. Agreed. Especially after realizing we are only a baker's dozen strong. 5. A provincial government should have limited scope. Only in so far as it should be limited to making decisions within and for the province. With this caveat met I would say the 'scope' of provincial government should not be limited at all. 6. A provincial government should allow every citizen to participate. Participate in what? Should a provincial government allow every citizen to participate in the provincial legislative process? I would say no. On national levels one may participate in that way IF elected, appointed or based on merit somehow, not just because of want. I think it should be the same here. The constitution should allow all citizens the right to participate SOMEHOW, but I don't know if everyone should have an automatic right to run the province. ... I wish I had more to input just now but i'm still gathering my thoughts on these new lines of discussion.
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Post by Eðo Grischun on Feb 29, 2012 0:33:48 GMT -6
Just another thought (might require another separate discussion)...
What rights could a provincial constitution protect for an individual that the Organic Law does not already? Are there any further rights that could be granted in a provincial bill of rights? To go further from this, What rights could Vuodeans claim as a Vuodean that no other Talossan would have?
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Trotxâ
Talossan since 10-17-2005; Knight since 11-5-2006
Deo duce, ferro comitante
Posts: 1,574
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Post by Trotxâ on Mar 1, 2012 8:50:23 GMT -6
To go further from this, What rights could Vuodeans claim as a Vuodean that no other Talossan would have? I thought you'd never ask. Our fair province has struggled for equal rights, resulting in this proposal. Trotxâ
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Trotxâ
Talossan since 10-17-2005; Knight since 11-5-2006
Deo duce, ferro comitante
Posts: 1,574
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Post by Trotxâ on Mar 1, 2012 8:53:43 GMT -6
... I wish I had more to input just now but i'm still gathering my thoughts on these new lines of discussion. With you on that. I have more too. Please stand by. Trotxâ
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2012 10:17:10 GMT -6
Any updates on this?
Sorry, I just read other posts that are indirectly related.
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Post by Eðo Grischun on Mar 16, 2012 14:55:31 GMT -6
... I wish I had more to input just now but i'm still gathering my thoughts on these new lines of discussion. With you on that. I have more too. Please stand by. Trotxâ Feeling anything?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2012 10:23:22 GMT -6
I agree. But is it possible that we leave some type of provisions to allow for the government to grow as the needs and size grow? I would prefer not to have to revisit this in a few years.
Agreed
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2012 9:56:35 GMT -6
Still nothing, eh?
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Post by Eðo Grischun on Apr 5, 2012 12:27:45 GMT -6
I, myself, was waiting on a response from Troxta (Sorry, my keyboard easily does á but not the pointy arrow thing (amulet?))
I'm sticking to my line of thinking that we should definitely be looking at a 'Vuode bill of rights' before an entire constitution.
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Trotxâ
Talossan since 10-17-2005; Knight since 11-5-2006
Deo duce, ferro comitante
Posts: 1,574
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Post by Trotxâ on Apr 10, 2012 1:25:17 GMT -6
Sorry - These recent messages came in during the Triduum, so I was a bit distracted. I, myself, was waiting on a response from Troxta (Sorry, my keyboard easily does á but not the pointy arrow thing (amulet?)) And I had a good one. Actually, it was a great response. It had wit, great policy, sincere methods for good governance. Oh - it was wonderful. Unfortunately, I lost the thread. The idea is gone. I had hoped that a spark from V or Eðo would kindle the line of reasoning, but that didn't happen. BTW: the a is good enough - Vuode knows of whom you speak. Thanks for the effort. But I think to further have this conversation, we need to further establish what it is our citizens truly need out of the provincial government... Agreed! What do our citizens need. A government that deals with borders, takes care of local issues and gets out of the way looks good to me. The question is, how? I am struggling to answer this myself. You're right - we don't need to compete with the National government. The question is, how? I am struggling to answer this myself. I know what you mean (See lost thread above.) So - that takes us back to these proposed guiding principles for our Constitution: 1. A provincial government should reflect the size and needs of the population. 2. A provincial government should not impose undue demands on our citizen's time. 3. A provincial government is not an appropriate venue for experiments in political science. 4. A provincial government should be simple. 5. A provincial government should have limited scope. 6. A provincial government should allow every citizen to participate. How do we make this real? Trotxâ
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Post by Eðo Grischun on Apr 10, 2012 10:21:06 GMT -6
Ok, under the "beat each horse till it's well and truly dead" debate rules, We shall need to take each point in turn and, well, debate it till it's dead. 1. A provincial government should reflect the size and needs of the population. This leads to the obvious two questions of: - What is the size of the Vuode population? Easy to answer.
- What are the needs, taking into consideration the answer to the math question above, of the population?
To build a provincial government that reflects size and needs we must first answer what are the size and needs. If I may be allowed to offer an opinion. I think to work out the answer to the 'needs' question we will have to delve deeper and ask 'What does it mean to be Vuodean?'. I know for FACT, for FACT, that Senator V and Sir Troxta would pull silly faces that would stick in the wind, in sheer horror and disgust if they were to be told that they were going to become some subjects of some other province. As would I. So, why do we call ourselves Vuodeans and why are we proud of it? History? Symbolic culture? Blind sub-Patriotism?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2012 10:15:51 GMT -6
So what are we thinking folks? Parliamentary government. Legislature with 15 seats to be assigned by the party. Prime Minister, etc.... I say the Prime Minister be both Head of Government and Head of State. I cannot see a reason to divide the two.
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Post by Eðo Grischun on Jul 18, 2012 18:02:51 GMT -6
So what are we thinking folks? Parliamentary government. Legislature with 15 seats to be assigned by the party. Prime Minister, etc.... I say the Prime Minister be both Head of Government and Head of State. I cannot see a reason to divide the two. How does that work Organically? Don't we need to have a Cunstaval as head of state?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2012 5:23:07 GMT -6
So what are we thinking folks? Parliamentary government. Legislature with 15 seats to be assigned by the party. Prime Minister, etc.... I say the Prime Minister be both Head of Government and Head of State. I cannot see a reason to divide the two. How does that work Organically? Don't we need to have a Cunstaval as head of state? That's fine. I was just throwing some ideas out.
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