Ián Tamorán S.H.
Chief Justice of the Uppermost Court
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Talossan Since: 9-27-2010
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Post by Ián Tamorán S.H. on Dec 10, 2011 4:59:06 GMT -6
We have already translated "Think Ahead", from my children's book The Carpenter's Carpet - and many thanks for all the help there - so here is another story from that same book: The Old Man and the Goat.
The Old Man and the Goat
"I would like a goat," said the old man, "it will give me milk and warm wool, and it can be my pet too." So the old man looked under his mattress, where he kept his money, and took out his last gold coin. He walked through the woods to the next village where he bought a fine goat at the market, picked the goat up and put it on his shoulders to walk home.
There were in the woods three rogues who whispered together about how they could get the goat. "Let us trick him," they said, "and if he gives the goat to us it will not be stealing."
The first rogue approached the old man. "Good evening, sir," said the first rogue. "Why are you carrying that dog on your shoulders?" "Don't be silly," said the old man, "it's not a dog I am carrying, it's a goat." "Do not be angry," said the first rogue, "but be careful. These woods are haunted."
When the old man had carried the goat a little further he was met by the second rogue. "Good evening, sir," said the second rogue. "Why are you carrying that young cow on your shoulders?" "Preposterous man!" exclaimed the old man, "it is not a cow, it is a goat I am carrying." "Do not be angry," said the second rogue, "but be careful. These woods are haunted."
The old man was a little worried now, but carried the goat further and he was met by the third rogue. "Good evening, sir," said the third rogue, "why are you carrying that donkey on your shoulders through these haunted woods?"
The old man was horrified. "Here, you take it!" he cried, thinking "it must be a goblin with four legs, and not a goat!" He threw the goat down, and ran home as fast as he could, terrified. By trickery the three rogues got the old man's goat, and the poor old man lost his gold.
It is not always right to believe what other people tell you: there are still rogues in the woods.
(The colours below indicate degree of editing: original is maroon, first edit is navy).
El Senesch es la Xhaira.
"Veladréu 'n xhaira," el senesch zireva, "ça zonadra à mhe del amcartour es dal laina varma, es ça put ocsà estarh va deír. Sa el senesch çerçeva sub el matreçeu, dov'esteva guardat sieu erxhent, es arac'heva sieu münts or dirnalaiset. O marscheva trans la selva à el þorpeu próxim dove o compreva 'n xhaira brä in el marchesc, o recampeva la xhaira es seteva lo pa sieux þumbreux svo àð squindarh.
In la selva hi estevent tres briinds qi cuntì schuschtevent in come façiun os becomadrent la xhaira. "Qe noi lo deçeitadrent," zirevent-os, "es schi o noi zonadra la xhaira, non serà 'n þeftéu." El briind prum proximeva el senesch. "¡Buna vhespra, segnor!" zireva-t-o. "¿Perqet vectidetz-voi acest caciun sür voschtri þumbreux? "¡Non estetz bart!" zireva el senesch, "Non c'e'n caciun qe vectidéu, c'e'n xhaira." "Non estetz ambrulént," zireva el briind prum, "mas estetz várlegeu in aceasta visitada selva."
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Ián Tamorán S.H.
Chief Justice of the Uppermost Court
Proud Philosopher of Talossa
Posts: 1,401
Talossan Since: 9-27-2010
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Post by Ián Tamorán S.H. on Dec 10, 2011 5:11:34 GMT -6
"I would like a goat," said the old man, "it will give me milk and warm wool, and it can be my pet too."
The old man wishes to posses a goat. "It" is the goat that he does not yet posses. So "I would like" = "would that I were to have" (or something like that). "it will give..." = "it would give..." conditional future. "too" = "also" We call the goat "it" in English - should it be "she" (or "he", for a billy-goat) in Talossan? For the moment I shall use ça rather than o or a - but I stand to be corrected.
"Tenadréu 'n xhaira," el senesch zireva, "ça zonadra à me del amcartour es dal laina varma, es ça put ocsà estarh va deír.
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Ián Tamorán S.H.
Chief Justice of the Uppermost Court
Proud Philosopher of Talossa
Posts: 1,401
Talossan Since: 9-27-2010
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Post by Ián Tamorán S.H. on Dec 10, 2011 5:35:06 GMT -6
So the old man looked under his mattress, where he kept his money, and took out his last gold coin.
"So" = "therefore" - but not the long, logical "for this reason". I hope sa is correct. "where he kept his money" = "where his money was kept" "last gold coin" = "coin, gold, last" "took out" = "withdrew"
Sa el senesch çerçeva sub el matreçeu, dove esteva guardat sieu erxhent, es arac'heva sieu münts or dirnalaiset.
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Hooligan
Squirrel King of Arms; Cunstaval to Maricopa
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Post by Hooligan on Dec 10, 2011 22:23:09 GMT -6
You would want to indicate lenition in à mhe. (I would have used the direct object there, but the prepositional phrase works nicely too.) I might also use d'or rather than simply or, since or is, in this sense, a noun, not an adjective.
Otherwise, I see nothing at all in any way incorrect. I would have done dov'o guardeva, but dove esteva guardat works too (though I would let the final e of dove elide as it is wont to, and say dov'esteva, or, to add the "he", dov'o esteva).
But I can suggest truly nothing at all that needs any modicum of modification.
Hool
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Post by Iustì Carlüs Canun on Dec 12, 2011 19:49:17 GMT -6
"I would like a goat," said the old man, "it will give me milk and warm wool, and it can be my pet too."The old man wishes to posses a goat. "It" is the goat that he does not yet posses. So "I would like" = "would that I were to have" (or something like that). "it will give..." = "it would give..." conditional future. "too" = "also" We call the goat "it" in English - should it be "she" (or "he", for a billy-goat) in Talossan? For the moment I shall use ça rather than o or a - but I stand to be corrected. "Tenadréu 'n xhaira," el senesch zireva, "ça zonadra à me del amcartour es dal laina varma, es ça put ocsà estarh va deír. I would use Qe tenadréu... if I wanted to say "would that I had a goat." But I think a better choice might be Veladréu or Me piaçadra for "I would like." "Me piaçadra (à tirh) 'n xhaira."
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Ián Tamorán S.H.
Chief Justice of the Uppermost Court
Proud Philosopher of Talossa
Posts: 1,401
Talossan Since: 9-27-2010
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Post by Ián Tamorán S.H. on Dec 19, 2011 10:59:57 GMT -6
He walked through the woods to the next village where he bought a fine goat at the market, picked the goat up and put it on his shoulders to walk home."He" is the old man. "... through the woods..." is the ordinary English idiom meaning 'between the trees naturally collected together (possibly on a path)': it does not mean that he somehow passed through the substance 'wood'. I say this because in some languages that is exactly the analysis you have to make! "... next village...": unspecified village, probably the closest one to the old man's home - though there is doubt here. We can say (in English) "to the nearest village", and then we can mean 'the nearest village but one' when we say "the next village" - but I'm not making that distinction here. "market": unspecified as to type - I imagine it as being open-air, with people shouting, and bustling about, and exchanging gossip. You can be sure, though, that it is not the local supermarket, or town mall. "fine goat": gender of goat unspecified here - it could be a nanny or a billy (or any of the other types for which linguistic distinction is made). Its gender is not important to the story at this point - but it is "fine"... that is, it is a goat of good quality. Given that, earlier on, the old man said that he wanted milk from the goat, we know that the goat is a nanny goat, and that it is either in kid, or has just had a kid. "on his shoulders": front legs one side, back legs the other side: it's like wearing a bleating scarf "to walk home": with the intention of walking home, and he also began that action. Walk: marscheva (none of promeneva, zambuleva or natierseva are relevant here) Woods: els boiçen / el boiç ... but maybe we mean el forscht or el bosc or la selva? We don't mean la sarda (mountains have not been mentioned), and we don't mean la taigà (this is a tale from the Anatolian peninsula). I think la selva in this case - but I stand to be corrected. Note: singular in Talossan, plural in English. Village: el cümün / el vilatx / el þorpeu ... hmmm, is there is distinction here? I think we do not want el cümün, but between vilatx and þorpeu is there a deciding factor? In English a village has a church, whereas a hamlet does not. I am going to go for þorpeu - the presence or absence of a church is not relevant to the story - but correct me if I'm wrong. Goat: xhaira rather than erc - I hardly think a mountain goat would tolerate this kind of treatment! O marscheva trans la selva à el þorpeu próxim dove o compreva 'n xhaira brä in el marchesc, o recampeva la xhaira es seteva lo pa sieux þumbreux svo àð squindarh. I wonder how many millions of mistakes I've made here?
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King John
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Post by King John on Dec 24, 2011 19:09:51 GMT -6
Sa el senesch çerçeva sub el matreçeu, dove esteva guardat sieu erxhent, es arac'heva sieu münts or dirnalaiset. I would change the word order to sieu dirnalaiset münts d'or, but I'm not sure exactly why. In Spanish, adjectives like último and primer generally precede their noun, and it seems like Talossan should work the same way. — John R
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Ián Tamorán S.H.
Chief Justice of the Uppermost Court
Proud Philosopher of Talossa
Posts: 1,401
Talossan Since: 9-27-2010
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Post by Ián Tamorán S.H. on Dec 27, 2011 18:56:14 GMT -6
Sa el senesch çerçeva sub el matreçeu, dove esteva guardat sieu erxhent, es arac'heva sieu münts or dirnalaiset. I would change the word order to sieu dirnalaiset münts d'or, but I'm not sure exactly why. In Spanish, adjectives like último and primer generally precede their noun, and it seems like Talossan should work the same way. — John R I agree that "first" and "last" should normally precede their nouns in Talossan - but I was wanting to particularly emphasise that this is the last gold coin, and I thought that - perhaps - by placing the word "last" ( dirnalaiset) at the very end it would be given greater emphasis.
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Ián Tamorán S.H.
Chief Justice of the Uppermost Court
Proud Philosopher of Talossa
Posts: 1,401
Talossan Since: 9-27-2010
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Post by Ián Tamorán S.H. on Jan 3, 2012 15:02:58 GMT -6
There were in the woods three rogues who whispered together about how they could get the goat.
there were: statement of existence, in the past - estevent
in the woods: the location of the three rogues - amongst the trees - in la selva
rogue: a slightly naughty man - not exactly a criminal, but just short of that - a cheat, a wide guy, a "spiv". We have to decide between briinds or lumps or vauriens. I think vauriens is not correct, as these men are not young scamps. I like the sound of briinds, so tres briinds it is.
whispered: they were talking quietly, no necessarily whispering (in the English sense of that word) - but I like the Talossan schuschtevent.
how they could get: in what manner they ((subject) the three rogues) past conditional get ((object) goat). Deep breath - dive into the Guiza...
In la selva estevent tres briinds qi cuntì schuschtevent in come façiun os becomadrent la xhaira.
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Post by Iustì Carlüs Canun on Jan 3, 2012 17:51:12 GMT -6
"In la selva hi estevent/füvent..."
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Ián Tamorán S.H.
Chief Justice of the Uppermost Court
Proud Philosopher of Talossa
Posts: 1,401
Talossan Since: 9-27-2010
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Post by Ián Tamorán S.H. on Apr 23, 2012 15:15:19 GMT -6
"Let us trick him," they said, "and if he gives the goat to us it will not be stealing."
"us", "they" = the three rogues "him" = the old man
The first part ("Let us trick him") is, in English, a first person imperative. I suspect that here we use the Talossan Jussive (subjunctive). The second part is a conditional sentence - the "it will not be stealing" is conditional upon "if he gives the goat to us" - so this has to be made clear in the translation.
Let us trick him = Qe lo deçeitadrent (? word order ?) they said = zirevent (? do we actually need the pronoun here ?) If he gives the goat to us = schi zonadra la xhaira noi it will not be stealing = there will be no theft = non serà þefteu
"Qe lo deçeitadrent," zirevent, "es schi zonadra la xhaira noi, non serà þefteu."
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Ián Tamorán S.H.
Chief Justice of the Uppermost Court
Proud Philosopher of Talossa
Posts: 1,401
Talossan Since: 9-27-2010
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Post by Ián Tamorán S.H. on Apr 24, 2012 14:37:39 GMT -6
The first rogue approached the old man. "Good evening, sir," said the first rogue. "Why are you carrying that dog on your shoulders?"
El briind pirmalaiset proximeva el senesch. "¡Buna vhespra, Segnor!" el pirmalaiset briind zireva. "Útqet voi vectidetz sür voschtri þumbreux 'n caciun?"
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Ián Tamorán S.H.
Chief Justice of the Uppermost Court
Proud Philosopher of Talossa
Posts: 1,401
Talossan Since: 9-27-2010
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Post by Ián Tamorán S.H. on Jun 4, 2012 4:48:39 GMT -6
"Don't be silly," said the old man, "it's not a dog I am carrying, it's a goat."Now the rogue addresses the old man in the second person plural (polite form), but the old man uses second person singular, as he is disdainful of the rogue's obviously silly observation - a dog, indeed! silly = seltsam or bart (stupid). I think, here, bart as I don't really have very much sympathy for the old man - who is himself rather seltsam said the old man = zireva el senesch or el senesch zireva ... I prefer the first word order - but I could (of course!) be wrong. "¡Non bart fäts!", zireva el senesch, "Non ün caciun vectidéu, isch ün xhaira."
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Post by Iustì Carlüs Canun on Jun 5, 2012 15:17:36 GMT -6
"Qe lo deçeitadrent," zirevent, "es schi zonadra la xhaira noi, non serà þefteu." "Qe noi lo deçeitadrent," zirevent-os, "es schi o noi zonadra la xhaira, non serà 'n þeftéu." El briind pirmalaiset proximeva el senesch. "¡Buna vhespra, Segnor!" el pirmalaiset briind zireva. "Útqet voi vectidetz sür voschtri þumbreux 'n caciun?" El briind prum proximeva el senesch. "¡Buna vhespra, segnor!" zireva-t-o. "¿Perqet vectidetz-voi acest caciun sür voschtri þumbreux?" "¡Non bart fäts!", zireva el senesch, "Non ün caciun vectidéu, isch ün xhaira." "¡Non estetz bart!" zireva el senesch, "Non c'e'n caciun qe vectidéu, c'e'n xhaira."
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Ián Tamorán S.H.
Chief Justice of the Uppermost Court
Proud Philosopher of Talossa
Posts: 1,401
Talossan Since: 9-27-2010
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Post by Ián Tamorán S.H. on Jun 26, 2012 15:33:46 GMT -6
"¡Non bart fäts!", zireva el senesch, "Non ün caciun vectidéu, isch ün xhaira." "¡Non estetz bart!" zireva el senesch, "Non c'e'n caciun qe vectidéu, c'e'n xhaira." I was trying to make the old man be rude - using the second person singular, and (by inversion) stressing the word bart. Is ¡Non bart fäts! actually incorrect?
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